Document Information
Date: 1905-04-07
By: Canada (Parliament)
Citation: Canada, House of Commons Debates, 10th Parl, 1st Sess, 1905 at 4082-4085.
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4082
EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
On the Orders of the Day being called,
Mr. W. J. ROCHE (Marquette). I wish to draw the attention of the First Minister to a matter referred to by him in his speeches of yesterday and the day before, and in reference to which his statement was, unfortunately, inaccurate. I refer to the following words used by the Prime Minister, ‘ Hansard,’ page 3839 of April 5th :
Mr. Rogers says that the ablegate made this remark :
This invitation was accepted and His Excellency then presented the following memorandum, remarking that if we would place this on the statute-book of our province it would greatly facilitate an early settlement of our mission, the fixing of our boundaries, which would be extended to the shores of Hudson bay.
As to that, I have no reason to make any comment, because that is a thing as to which I know nothing. Then Mr. Rogers goes on to say :
His Excellency further added that our failure to act in the past had prejudiced our claim for extension westward.
Well, Sir, I cannot conceive how the Papal ablegate, or anybody else, could have stated that the failure of the province of Manitoba to amend the School Act prevented the extension of its boundaries westward, and that if such had been done it would have facilitated this extension. I cannot conceive how it is possible that such a statement could have been made, considering the fact that since the month of July, 1896, when we came into office, up to the month of January, 1905, we never received from the government of Manitoba a communication asking for the extension of the boundaries of that province. There may have been resolutions passed by the legislature, asking for the extension of their boundaries ; I do not know. I am told there have
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been, and I have seen in the press that resolutions were passed in 1901, that resolutions were passed also, as I understand, in 1902, and resolutions were passed, I know, in 1905.
The right hon. gentleman conveyed the impression that there had been no application made on behalf of the legislature of Manitoba to this government for an extension of the boundaries of that province, and that the only information he had gleaned in reference to the resolutions passed by the legislature of Manitoba was gleaned from the public press, or that he was told that such resolutions had been passed. He followed that up in yesterday’s speech, in referring to the interview which was said to have taken place with Monseigneur Sbarretti, by saying:
In that interview Monseigneur Sbarretti was reported to have said that it would facilitate matters if these gentlemen would consent to the restoration of separate schools in Manitoba, and that if that had been done before it would have facilitated the extension of their boundaries towards the west. Well, Sir, I stated that I could hardly believe that His Excellency could have used such language, because then and there Mr. Rogers would have answered—
I may say that Mr. Rogers did not meet the Papal ablegate and never claimed to have met him—
—and could have answered the Apostolic delegate that there never had been by the government of Manitoba any demand upon this government to extend their boundaries prior to the month of January last, and therefore Monseigneur Sbarretti could not, in my judgment, have used such language in the presence of Mr. Rogers.
It will be seen that the right hon. gentleman tried to cast an aspersion upon the accuracy of the statement of Mr. Rogers in reference to the extension of the boundaries stating that no application had been made to this government from 1896 up to January, 1905. When the right hon. gentleman made that remark, I had some faint recollection of having myself presented some petition or memorial on behalf of the legislature of Manitoba to this House, and I took the trouble of looking up the journals of the House of Commons. I find in volume xxxvi., of the Journals for 1901, under date of Friday, 26th April, 1901, at page 223, the following:
The following petition was brought up and laid on the table: By Mr. Roche (Marquette) the petition of the legislative assembly of the province of Manitoba.
Then, at page 226, under date of Monday, 29th April, 1901, I find the following:
Pursuant to the order of the day, the following petitions were read and received: Of the legislative assembly of the province of Manitoba, complaining of the present scant area of said province, and praying the House to enact such legislation as will so extend its
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boundaries as to include portions of the adjacent districts.
I desire to draw this to the attention of the House to show that the right hon. gentleman is not possessed of that very good memory which a couple of days ago he prided himself on having; and, in view of what I have stated, he would probably have no objection to bringing down this memorial and having it printed with the rest of the correspondence.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER. I do not know that my memory is at fault, even after the statement of my hon. friend. I stated the other day that I understood that petitions and resolutions had been passed by the legislative assembly of Manitoba, but I am not aware that those resolutions had been followed by any executive action.
Mr. R. L. BORDEN. Or brought to the attention of the government?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER. It appears that my hon. friend laid that memorial on the table of this House, but we know that many memorials and petitions are brought here and very little attention is paid to them. When I read the statement of Mr. Rogers, I had no recollection that this matter had been brought to the attention of this government by the government of Manitoba. I inquired of my colleagues, and they were of the same opinion as myself. To make sure, I asked the clerk of the Privy Council if any petition had been received from the government of Manitoba, and he gave me this memorandum:
From June, 1896, to January, 1905, there is no record in the Privy Council office of a claim advanced by the province of Manitoba for the extension of its boundaries. In May, 1902, there was a protest from the Northwest Territories against the extension of the boundaries of the province of Manitoba.
What my hon. friend shows to-day is that a petition was passed by the legislature of Manitoba and was presented at this table by my hon. friend. But I have no recollection of it, and I cannot bring it down, because it is not in the archives of the government, but is already in the archives of the House of Commons. Therefore, my hon. friend will see that after all I was not inaccurate.
Mr. R. L. BORDEN. I am not quite so sure of that. It is rather a small matter perhaps, but I would be inclined to think that the right hon. gentleman is rather inaccurate. It is quite true, as he says, that the resolutions of the Manitoba legislature were not followed by executive action in one sense; but he said something else. He said:
Neither in 1901 nor in 1902 were these resolutions passed by the legislature of Manitoba followed by executive action or called to the attention of the government of Canada
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When a petition of the legislature of a province is laid on the table of the House by a member of this House, I would think that was a very distinct calling of the attention of the government to that petition. The right hon. gentleman is leader of the government, but he is also leader of this House. We always refer to him in that way; and when a petition for aid or a petition for extension of boundaries is laid upon the table of the House of Commons, I would very respectfully submit that it is called to the attention of the government just as effectively as if a copy were sent to the government direct. I do not know of what use it would otherwise be to present such a petition to parliament. All of us know that legislation of that kind could only be initiated by the government, and it is idle to present any such petition to parliament unless it is intended by so doing to bring it to the attention of the government in order that they may initiate the legislation necessary to carry out the request. I think my right hon. friend, on looking carefully over that portion of his remarks to which attention has been called, will see that the impression it left upon our minds, certainly the impression left upon my own mind, was that he had no knowledge whatever of the resolutions of the Manitoba legislature except what he had derived from the public press of the country. I have no doubt that the right hon. gentleman made that statement in the most perfect good faith, but at the same time it was hardly accurate under the circumstances.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER. If I may be permitted, Mr. Speaker, to reply to my hon. friend, I must say that when I spoke I had no knowledge of those resolutions except what I had derived from the press of the country. It turns out now that a petition was laid on the table of this House. I have no recollection of that and I doubt if any one else has any recollection of it or took much interest in it; because dozens of petitions are presented to the House to which very little attention is paid, and unless my attention were specially called to it, I would probably know nothing about it. But the executive government of Manitoba never took any action on this matter until the month of January, 1905.