Document Information
Date: 1905-07-18
By: Canada (Parliament)
Citation: Canada, Senate Debates, 10th Parl, 1st Sess, 1905 at 871-873.
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NORTHWEST TERRITORIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
SECOND AND THIRD READING.
Hon. Mr. SCOTT moved the second reading of Bill (160) An Act to amend the Northwest Territories Act.’ He said : This Act becomes necessary inasmuch as we have established two provinces, Alberta and Saskatchewan, out of a portion of the Territories and Rupert’s Land, and this makes provision for the government of the remaining portion. It authorizes the Governor in Council to appoint a commission and advisory board and so on, to pass ordinances and make provision for the government of the Territories outside of the two provinces.
Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—Has my hon. friend any information as to the population of those unorganized districts over which this provisional government would extend.
Hon. Mr. SCOTT—I do not know, but it must be very sparse indeed.
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Hon. Mr. LANDRY—It comprises all of Mackenzie.
Hon. Mr. SCOTT—The population in Mackenzie is sparse.
Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—What is the purpose of passing elaborate legislation in view of the fact that these unorganized districts of the Northwest have been administered by the territorial government? It seems to me that they could have been provisionally administered by the governments of Alberta and Saskatchewan, providing a dividing line had been drawn running north and south between those two provinces. If so emasculated a form of government as the territorial form of government could administer the unorganized territories under the primitive machinery they had, it seems to me they could administer it now much more effectively and efficiently than this provisional government.
Hon. Mr. SCOTT—The subject was fully discussed by the members of the government, and the conclusions reached are now embodied in this Bill. It was thought better to have it governed by an independent commission instead of by the governments of Alberta and Saskatchewan.
The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read the second time. The House resolved itself into Committee of the Whole on the Bill.
(In the Committee).
On clause 3,
Hon. Mr. LANDRY—How far north does Rupert’s Land go?
Hon. Mr. TEMPLEMAN—To the North Pole.
Hon. Mr. SCOTT—This would include through the Arctic ocean.
Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—What is my hon. friend’s view of the westerly limit of Rupert’s Land? There are no arbitrary lines to determine what is Rupert’s Land in the Northwest Territories?
Hon. Mr. SCOTT—Rupert’s Land was all the territory wherein there were rivers flowing into Hudson Bay, and it did not embrace all the Northwest Territories.
The clause was adopted.
On clause 8,
Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—It seems to me that there should be some qualification as to the professional standing of the magistrates to be appointed. The Bill does not provide that they shall have any legal training, and it seems to me, as they are vested with a jurisdiction quite equal to that of a Superior Court judge and possessed of a jurisdiction to try capital offences, they should certainly be men of legal professional standing at a particular bar for a specified number of years.
Hon. Mr. SCOTT—That would involve appointing an official with a very high standing and certainly in the primitive conditions which exist in the northern country, a stipendiary magistrate ought to be quite equal to any litigation that might arise.
Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—But I might point out to my hon. friend that where a man is being tried for a capital offence by one of the stipendiary magistrates, the matter is quite as important to him as it is to a man being tried for the same offence in any of the organized provinces. Consequently where so important and so large a jurisdiction is vested in an official, he should possess all the qualifications to deal with the matter.
Hon. Mr. SCOTT—I will call the attention of the Minister of Justice to the observation of my hon. friend. I do not think it was necessary when the Territories were first established that these officials should have legal attainments until the population went in. This refers entirely to a country where there is sparse population.
Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—The original stipendiary magistrates, who were appointed for the Territories which we are now creating into provinces were all lawyers of some standing.
Hon Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—Is it the Governor in Council in Ottawa who is to appoint the stipendiary magistrates?
Hon. Mr. SCOTT—The Governor in Council. This Bill relates entirely to the Territory outside of the new provinces, and it is the Governor in Council who will appoint the commissioner and any official who may
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be appointed. I think clause 9 covers the point raised by the hon. gentleman.
Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—The promise of the hon. Secretary of State to call the attention of the Minister of Justice to this clause—unless it be that he acts upon the suggestion made by the hon. gentleman from Calgary and appoints a legal man to act—will not amount to very much. There is no restriction as to the appointment.
The clause was adopted.
On clause 9,
Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—It seems to me no good reason can be shown why the same procedure is not adopted in this Bill that was adopted in the early Northwest Territories’ Act—that is having an appeal to the court. The appeal provided for in section 9 only extends from the decision of a stipendiary magistrate to a judge. My hon. friend will observe that the finding of a judge will be conclusive and final. It seems to me that that appeal certainly should be to the highest appellate court in one or other of the new provinces. Under the old Northwest Territories’ Act, the appeal lay from the stipendiary magistrate to the Queen’s Bench of Manitoba and that appeal continued for a considerable length of time until the organization of the Supreme Court. I would venture to say that the attention of the Minister of Justice should be directed to that fact.
Hon. Mr. SCOTT—I will mention the matter to him.
Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—Because quite as important matters will arise in the unorganized districts as in the provinces.
Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—It is really another illustration of the effect of bringing down these measures at this stage of the session. We might just as well take these Bills, hold them up and say : ‘First, second and third reading.’ For if an attempt be made to correct or make them workable in the manner suggested by the hon. gentleman from Calgary, we shall be told by the hon. Secretary of State, ‘it is too late in the session to make any change, I will call the attention of the Minister of Justice to the matter.’ That will have no effect whatever, and it is rendering legislation, as far as this Senate is concerned, a farce.
Hon. Mr. TEMPLEMAN—Carried.
Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—That is just it—carried.
The clause was adopted.
On clause 11,
Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—I would point out that it is going to be rather difficult to determine in the absence of witnesses if the testator wrote his signature.
Hon. Mr. POWER—In the province of Quebec a holograph will is good as to personal property.
Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—A will is to be made valid notwithstanding the fact that it is not witnessed. I fancy the draughtsman had in view that it should be valid although the witnesses had not signed it.
Hon. Mr. POWER—No. In England until William IV, a holograph will was good to convey personal property, and the hon. gentleman from de Salaberry says that in Quebec it is good to convey any kind of property.
Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—But if nobody saw him sign it how are you going to establish it?
Hon. Mr. POWER—In a country like that it might be impossible to get witnesses.
Hon. Mr. THOMPSON from the committee, reported the Bill without amendment.
The Bill was then read a third time and passed.