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Date: 1867-12-09
By: Canada (Parliament)
Citation: Canada, House of Commons Debates, 1st Parl, 1st Sess, 1867 at 222-229.
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NORTH-WEST TERRITORY

The Order of the Day being called for, concurrence in the resolutions respecting the North-West Territory, William McDougall [Lanark North] said he would move that the resolutions be not concurred in, but referred again to Committee of the Whole, in order to make certain amendments. It had been objected to the 6th resolution, that there was in it something incongruous; that it would have been difficult, if not impossible, to embrace in the Order-in-Council to be issued by Her Majesty. On reconsidering the matter, it became evident to the Government that what ought to be detailed in the address, was really contained in the first half of the resolution. It was, therefore, proposed to strike out the last part from the word “respected”—when the resolution would read:

That, in the event of the Imperial Government agreeing to transfer to Canada jurisdiction and control over this region, it would be expedient to provide that the rights of any corporation, company, or individual, within the same will be respected and placed under the protection of courts of competent jurisdiction.

The Government thought that, in the event of this great territory being transferred to Canada, we would respect the rights of all parties; and if the Imperial Government was asked to hand over the territory to us, we would receive it subject to any legal claims which British subjects might have upon it; and, inasmuch as the territory, when so handed over to us, would be without government and the protection of the law until established there by Canada, it would be proper for this Government to see that proper and competent Courts of Jurisdiction were established. The character of these courts,

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their jurisdiction, and number was left to the direction of Parliament when the time came for dealing with the question. Then it was proposed by Government to add as the last resolution:

It is also resolved that in case any negotiations between the Canadian Government and the Hudson’s Bay Company for the termination of the rights of the latter, entered into in accordance with the despatch of 18th June, 1865, from the then Secretary of State for the Colonies to His Excellency the Governor-General should result in any agreement between them, it is hereby declared that the same shall be submitted to and be sanctioned by the Parliament of Canada, before same shall have any effect whatever.

(Hear, hear.) He, (Mr. McDougall) thought these amendments would remove all difficulties that had arisen in the course of the debates, and the Address would then stand as embodying a proposition by the Parliament of this country to assume that territory, reserving and protecting all rights that might exist in regard to it, and assuming the protection of the Indians. These were the only conditions which Government thought it prudent or desirable the people of this country should assent to. Whether the Imperial Government would endeavour to impose additional terms in making the transfer of the territory Government knew nothing, and it would be time enough to deal with such conditions when they were asked. Motion carried.

The House then went into Committee, Mr. Stewart Campbell in the Chair.

The amendment to the sixth resolution being put,

Luther Holton [Châteauguay] asked whether it was in contemplation of this resolution to establish courts in that country to have jurisdiction over the rights claimed by the Hudson’s Bay Company.

John A. Macdonald [Kingston] replied it was not. The proposition was this:—Her Majesty, in her Imperial capacity as sovereign of Great Britain, was sovereign of this great territory of the North-West. It was proposed the House should address Her Majesty under the terms of the Union Act, and Her Majesty, by Order-in-Council, could transfer that sovereignty to the Government and Parliament of Canada, so that the Government of Canada would give that territory a Government and the Parliament of Canada would legislate for its welfare and good government. Of course, in order to carry out that object, Canada must establish courts for the protection of life, liberty, and property, and when his honourable friend (Mr. McDougall) introduced the resolutions he thought it well, in consequence of remarks from the opposite side, to allude to the second branch of the sixth resolution, which really formed no part of what Canada asked from England, because it simply assumed certain duties after the transfer should be made. As to what the constitution of the territory would be that was a matter for future consideration. It was very probable we could not foresee what conditions the Home Government might attach to the grant, but whatever they might be they would have to be submitted for sanction to this Parliament. (Hear, hear). Her Majesty would, Sir John thought, on receiving this address, convey the sovereignty and right of governing to the Legislature of Canada, leaving it to the wisdom of the Parliament of Canada to settle the mode of government in that territory, which he presumed, speaking on first impression, and giving his own opinion-would be a provisional one, according to the wants of the country. Of course, it would be idle to give the country the same Government as in Canada, but representative institutions should be at once introduced, in order that the people might have a voice in their Government, and they should also have representation in the Parliament of the Dominion. He might say Government thought it well to make the proposition, offering to assume the sovereignty and power over this territory unclogged by any conditions whatever, and they believed the Parliament of Canada, acting through the Government, held the confidence of Her Majesty and her advisers so completely that they would readily trust this Parliament with any power it might ask, and should there be conditions imposed, they would of course be submitted for its sanction. (Hear, hear).

Luther Holton [Châteauguay] said, as he understood it the main object of acquiring this territory at all was to open trade and establish Government. Now, he would like to ask his honourable friends whether so long as the claims of the Hudson’s Bay Company were unliquidated, we could by the mere transfer of the sovereignty from the mother country obtain power to do that which the mother country had never authorized any party to do yet, and which the Hudson’s Bay Co. denied any person had a right to do, to wit-trade with the people of that country, and acquire fee simple in the land. If the transfer would not give that power, then the honourable gentleman opposite, it struck him, failed to make out a case. It struck him, too, that what was in contemplation in the Union Act was, that

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the address to Her Majesty should follow the negotiations, and that the address should set forth clearly and distinctly the terms on which we were prepared to unite that territory with Canada.

Joseph Howe [Hants] said it appeared to him that the honourable gentlemen opposite were approaching this subject in rather a better spirit: and assuming they all had the same object in view, he suggested whether they might not go a step further. He had said from the first that he knew the value of this territory. He believed it capable of being made fit for the habitation, not only of thousands, but of millions of human beings. It would be a disgrace to leave it in the condition it was now in. The Hudson’s Bay Company’s privileges ought, at all events, to be limited, and their operations thrown back to frozen regions. That ought to be done by somebody; and, with no desire to embarrass Government, or obtain any party triumph, he would throw out a suggestion, that the Imperial Government be asked to form Rupert’s Land and other portions of the territory into a Crown colony. If they did that, it would be a great blessing to civilization. In the meantime, if the young men of this country desired to settle there, let them do so, and he, for one, would be prepared to vote any rea- sonable sum of money for the purpose of opening up communication until, at fitting time, the territory might, perhaps, become more closely united with this country.

Thomas Parker [Wellington Centre] wished to know whether they would be bound under this address to pay the claims of the Hudson’s Bay Company.

John A. Macdonald [Kingston] said it was asserted in the 6th resolution that legal rights would be respected, but they avoided any arbitration with respect to those rights by placing them under the protection of the courts.

Thomas Parker [Wellington Centre] understood it was the intention to create courts where these questions would be taken.

Joseph Howe [Hants] wished to know how they proposed to raise a question between the Hudson’s Bay Company and Canada.

John A. Macdonald [Kingston] said it was not necessary to admit the title of the Company. They asked the Imperial Government to transfer to them the right to legislate for this territory, and the rights of the company were ignored; but if they had any legal rights they would be respected. The charter granted by King Charles II, covered but a small portion of country, and on the rest they were but trespassers. For years and years Canada has wanted to get possession of that country, for they felt the necessity for having an extension for the future teeming population of Western Canada. They felt that though there were large tracts of land fit for settlement, for half the population of Canada, it was broken in character, and not attractive in its outline. In consequence of this, the young men of Canada, instead of going into those small isolated tracts of land, went to the expansive prairies of the Great West, where they would not have the labour of clearing the Forest. Thirty thousand young men from Lower Canada alone were in the United States. In Western Canada family after family were moving off in bodies and making a settlement together in the Western States. They could not keep them if they offered them land for nothing on account of its broken character. The first thirteen States of the Union could hold the whole population of the United States at this time, but they did not confine themselves to these limits, but emigrated westward. From the very moment they got their independence, they commenced to extend their border. Their first attempt was to haul the wool over England’s eyes, and get the Western country to which they had no more right than the Emperor of Russia. He did not think they were acting like the frog in the fable, as his honourable friend from Hants said Canada was. They felt they had a right to expand and claim ail they could, and this desire has placed that country in the position they now are. England could not very well say to us, “There is a great country for you, if you want it, take it and settle it with British subjects, and we will help you to defend it.” If we don’t take it, there is no right, obligation, or sense in asking England to draw from the Imperial purse to defend the country, unless she chooses to do so for her own advantage. If we do not embrace this opportunity, it may never return; for all the power of England may not save it from the United States, if we allow it to go out of our grasp. They could not expect the Hudson’s Bay Company to expend large sums of money there now, when by the Union Act, the Government of England and the Government of Canada may agree to deprive them of the right of legislation and the right of trading, while every shilling they have there is liable to taxation. The feeling of the people is always against any company who are large land owners, and more ownership of

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soil would be a burden if they were confined to that. They could not expect England to spend her money to settle British North America, any more than they could expect her to spend her money to settle and explore the centre of Australia. There is no blame for England that she does not put a tax upon her people to settle British America. It is Canada that should expend money for this purpose. We would be false to ourselves, and false to everything that would make us respectable in the eyes of the world, if we neglected this opportunity. If we do, it may pass from us to the United States. The Republic of Mexico has opened its northern country to settlement, and immigrants went in there and took possession of the territory, and held it as a separate State. After they had asserted in the field their ability to defend their possession as an independent State, then, and not before, commenced a communication between them and the United States for their admission into the Union. The same thing is going on in the North-West. The Americans are going in, singly first; the trapper, then the trader, and by-and-by the settler. The people of the United States are tearing up every line of demarkation between the North-West and the United States. They are going in, and if they find no established institutions or organized Government, they will form an Association and commence a Government on their own. It had been said that England wished to get rid of us. He denied it. The whole resources of the Empire would be used in our behalf if we needed them. They should not refuse this North-West Territory, even if it involved a considerable sum of money. The United States paid a large sum of money for a country from Russia, and they would pay the debt of Canada forty times over to get that country; and, are we to be afraid of a sum of money when we get a whole continent for it. After we get that country hundreds of thousands of our Canadian population would go there, besides emigrants from Great Britain, Germany, Norway and Sweden. It had been said by the member for West Durham (Mr. Blake) that this was a worse proposition than the proposition of 1865. It was precisely the same. It was simply that we wished to take possession of this territory, and would undertake to legislate for it and to govern it, leaving the Hudson’s Bay Company no right except the right of securing their title in the best way they could in the Courts of competent jurisdiction. And what would their title be worth the moment it was known the country belonged to Canada, and that the Canadian Government and Canadian courts had jurisdiction there, and that the chief protection of the Hudson’s Bay Company and the value of their property named-even the exclusive right of trading in these regions—were gone forever. The company would be only too glad that the country should be handed over to Canada, and would be ready to enter into any reasonable arrangements. The value of the company’s interest would be determined by the value of their stock, and what would that be when the whole country belonged to Canada? We would get the country at the cost of a comparatively small sum of money. If we did not embrace the opportunity now, we might never have so favourable terms again, for it would in all probability be taken possession of by foreign settlers, who would hold it against all comers; but if the country once belonged to Canada he had no fear of American invasion. There would be a wholesome emulation between British and American settlers, and if there was any country in the world which could furnish good and law-abiding settlers to another country, it was the United States of America. They would readily give their support to British institutions if they found them existing there; but if they found no such institutions-if they found a country abandoned by English sovereignty and by the English nation-they would form institutions of their own, and hold themselves free from any claim on the part of England to their loyalty or allegiance. He repeated, that now was the time to avail ourselves of the overwhelming advantages which the possession of this great country offered to the United States, and he implored this House, as now laying the basis of a great nation, not to neglect this opportunity. It had been said that the proposition formerly was that we should only take that portion of the country which was fit for actual settlement, and let the Hudson’s Bay Company keep the rest; but what was the very first proposition submitted at the Quebec Conference? It was that we should embrace the whole of British America in our scheme. It was perfectly well understood, when the scheme was submitted to the Parliament and people of Canada, that the completion, complement, and full design of the scheme-be it for the weal or the woe of British America—was that it should include the whole of British America, from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Suppose it were true that the proposition had only been to obtain that portion of

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the territory which was fit for settlement, what would have been the result? We would get that portion running along the border, where if any such danger existed at all, there was danger of collision with the United States; while in the north there would have been a county still in the possession of the Hudson’s Bay Company, imperfectly governed, and only held for trading purposes. We would have had continual disquiet. We would have had the trouble arising from different systems of customs duties along that border. We would have had the difficulty of a large Indian population crossing the line one day into our territory, and the next into Rupert’s Land, a quasi foreign territory, where we would have no control over them. If we were to assume the responsibility of governing that country it was essential that we should have one system over the whole territory. Not only, therefore, was this the time to take possession of the country, but it was a matter of necessity to us that we should get the whole country. If we failed in our duty our children’s children would have occasion to regret it, and, expatriated from what should have been their inheritance, would curse the want of patriotism, and want of common sense displayed by their ancestors. (Cheers).

Charles Tupper [Cumberland] said he probably would not have taken part in this discussion had it not been that a number of representatives of that part of the Dominion from which he came had felt it their duty to address the House, on various occasions, strongly in opposition to the policy submitted by these resolutions. He (Dr. Tupper) felt bound to support them, because in the first place as one of the delegates to the Quebec Conference, by whom this system of government for the Dominion of Canada was inaugurated, he was in honour bound to support the policy which these resolutions propounded. The gentlemen who there met as representatives of the various Provinces, animated by a common interest and a common danger in presence of a great armed power along our frontier, came to the conclusion that the true interest and safety of these Provinces lay in uniting our fortunes, and the measure then adopted declared to the American Republic and to the world, that we intended so far as lay in our power, to hand down unimpaired to our children, the priceless, inestimable blessings we had inherited from the present State, and it was placed broadly on the face of the policy then adopted, that we intended not only to preserve the benefits of British institutions for the Provinces represented at the Conferences, but to extend it over the whole of British America, from the Atlantic to the Pacific shores. He felt he would be recreant to his duty if he did not now adhere to the policy then announced at the very outset of their proceedings; but more than that, he felt to-day as then that for our own interests, for the preservation of our own rights and liberties, and the institutions we prize so highly, it was necessary that the whole of British America should remain British. Dr. Tupper then proceeded to show at some length the vastness of the territory sought to be incorporated, the fertility of soil, salubrity of climate, the varied character of mineral resources, and its wealth as a furbearing country. He then spoke of the comparative ease with which communications could be established, it being only necessary to make 200 miles of road in the district between the head of Lake Superior and Fort Garry, and 300 miles more to connect the navigation of the Saskatchewan with that of the Fraser River, so as to make a continuous line of road and steamboat navigation from the Atlantic to the Pacific. He went on to contend that if ever British America was to assume the position of a great country-if there was to be any great accession of population and wealth into this nationality which it had been our good fortune to found, it must be by directing into it a stream of immigration. To attract immigration it was necessary to present to them a nationality which was able to wield its own destiny; it was necessary also to be able to meet what was the constant tendency of the tide of immigration which was always seeking the west. He adverted to the fact that Irishmen coming to the States had their hate of Britain intensified, when coming here, none were more loyal or attached to British institutions. He thought that in filling up our North-West territory with immigration from Ireland, the empire had an opportunity of filling it up with an orderly and prosperous community, who, remaining at home, would languish in poverty and rankle in discontent. He pointed out that the construction of the intercolonial Railway and other works, presented a peculiarly favourable opportunity in connection with the opening up of the North-West, for inviting that immigration. In this debate he was pleased to find that the men who laying aside former political animosities, to put their hands to the great work of consolidating British power in British America, were found as a solid phalanx in support of these resolutions. He had never listened with greater

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pleasure to any gentleman in any Parliament than he had done to the member for Lambton, (Mr. Mackenzie), who rising superior to party interests, felt it due to himself and to the country in which he held so conspicuous a position, to give his emphatic support to the Ministry on this question. He felt that the honourable member took a course, which instead of weakening his power and position as leader of the opposition, would raise him in the estimation of the whole intelligent people of this country. (Hear, hear). He had thought the member for Hants occupied a peculiarly unfortunate position in the House, but never considered him an object of sympathy till the member for Shefford took him under his protection. He had listened with a great deal of astonishment to the arguments which had fallen from honourable gentlemen presuming to belong to the Reform party of Canada, when he heard them expressing sympathy for the people of Nova Scotia be- cause their rights and liberties had been trampled upon. He felt that in making such a charge even-handed justice was not being meted out to those who had fought the great battle of Union in Nova Scotia. If there was any portion of the people of the great Dominion who should never have raised their voices to say any liberty had been taken with the rights of the people of Nova Scotia it was the great Reform party of Ontario, who, when he was fighting the battle of Union in his own Province, were urging him to carry it to a successful termination. The question of the acquisition having come up de novo, he asked the House whether there was a man in the House who could get up and say the Government were trampling under feet the rights of the people of Nova Scotia by not submitting this question to them at the polls? Yet that was the point. Because he would not do what no statesman ever thought of doing, he was compelled to sit here and hear sympathy expressed for the people of Nova Scotia. He could say to the member for Shefford that he forgot what was due to the interests of the Dominion in defending the men who got up night after night and endeavoured to destroy the best interests of the country. It had fallen to his (Tupper’s) duty, in the presence of the English people, to defend the people of Ontario and Quebec from the strongest aspersions on their loyalty itself, and the reward he now met with was to be represented as ignoring the rights and liberties of the people of the Dominion. He read an extract from The Globe to show the misrepresentation which had been employed against the Government. It set forth that the Dominion Government previous to the elections had made advances to the Government of Nova Scotia for Railways. There did not seem to be anything very startling in that. The fact was that the Government was bound to assume every responsibility of the Government of Nova Scotia, and not a penny was advanced before elections. Yet that was held up by a member of this House to the people of Nova Scotia as a black transaction, by which the rights of the people of Nova Scotia were undermined. This was a sample of the licentiousness of the press, by which the very small success of the anti-Union party had been obtained. It had been more than insinuated that offers were held out to take a gentleman who was one of the Reform party to cross the House and sustain the Government. All he could say was that the member for Hants had never made such an assertion himself; but he (Dr. Tupper) would not have been surprised if the member had thought such an arrangement not altogether improbable. The anti-Union party went to the polls pledged to oppose the gentlemen on the treasury benches, and called upon the people to vote down them as a corrupt combination. After the election a change came over the spirit of their dreams, and these same gentlemen who went to the polls denouncing the Coalition as dangerous to the interest of the country, came out next morning and said they had never been in the slightest degree connected with the organ over the way, and that there was no reason why they should not give a fair support to George Brown’s Ministry. After this it was no wonder a portion of the press should come to the conclusion that advances had been made, not that he believed there had been any. He went on to refer to the member for Hants’ attack on the member for Lanark, and defended the latter in his charge of inconsistency brought against the former. Referring to the comparison made between the member for Northumberland and Great Tidal Bore, to which people became so accustomed that they paid no attention to it, he said the illustration had another application. People caught on sands were often destroyed in trying to escape from the advancing wave, and the member for Hants felt the sand sinking under his foot as the wave of logical argument of the member for Northumberland swept over him. He also contended that the member for Hants admitted his willingness to concede all these resolutions. He (Mr. Howe) had said to go in and take possession of the territory, and open communication with it.

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The member for Hants would do well to make the same candid admission in this matter that he had done in regard to the Grand Trunk Bill—that he was incorrect as to his facts.

Antoine Dorion [Hochelaga] said he had listened with great pleasure to the speech of the honourable member for Cumberland, but he could not help thinking that the greater portion of it was a mere repetition of that gentleman’s electioneering difficulties. He did not think we were in a position to indulge in such glowing descriptions of our great strength and power; at any rate, others did not see us in that light. He had lately read an article in the London Times comparing Canada to a baby without strength, and only being allowed to live from the fact of its weakness. It had been said that the people of the old country despised us because we are colonists, and it was argued the possession of this territory would place us in a better position in the opinion of Englishmen and Scotchmen. Supposing the territory was acquired, would we be any less colonists, and would we not be still in the same position with reference to the mother country? He had no doubt there was a large extent of fertile and arable land in this North-West Territory, but unfortunately it was almost inaccessible, except through the United States. In reaching this Territory, immigrants had to pass through equally fertile territory in the United States, and much more accessible to the outside world. Under these circumstances, was it to be expected that immigrants would, in any great numbers, seek a more distant and less accessible territory? We know not what the claims of the Hudson’s Bay Company were. We were asked, in effect, to vote an indefinite amount, no one knows how much, for the possession of this territory. True, the policy, in his opinion, was to urge the Imperial Government to determine what the claims of the Hudson’s Bay Company are, and when that was determined Government could state to Parliament the exact sum required to meet those claims. But, by the proposition before the House, we were to vote an indefinite amount which could only be determined after it was too late to withdraw from the bargain. With five or six or more millions of acres of land in New Brunswick and Quebec, which would be opened up by the building of the Intercolonial Railway, he thought there need be no hurry to send our population to the North-West. With a floating debt of something like seven millions, with two millions more to raise for public works, and the twenty millions for the Intercolonial Railroad, he thought we were not justified in voting an indefinite sum for the claims of the Hudson Bay Company, besides the large amount required to open up that country before it would be of any value as a field for immigration.

Pierre Chauveau [Quebec County] (in French) argued that settlement had heretofore gone towards the Southwest, because the means of travel had been opened in that direction, but that if communication were opened up with the North-West, colonization would follow the line of travel, and settle that country. In reply to the member for Hants, he said the majority of the inhabitants of the North-West Territory were French Canadians, and from the French Canadian point of view they had nothing now to fear from the opening up of that country. If honourable members were to oppose these resolutions by conjuring up fears as to the future, they might be met by the fears that would have been excited in the past. Fifty years ago, who could have believed that Canada would have possessed these splendid Legislative Halls, or played the important part she is now doing in the affairs of the world? The honourable gentleman made an eloquent speech in favour of the resolutions.

Henri Joly [Lotbinière] (in French) contended that after taking possession of the territory it would be too late to refuse the payment of whatever sum might be claimed as compensation for the Hudson’s Bay Company.

George-Étienne Cartier [Montreal East] (in French) explained the object of the amendment to place the settlement of the question under the control of Parliament; and thereafter reviewed some of the arguments advanced in opposition to the policy of the Government.

Alexander Mackenzie [Lambton] said the member for Cumberland (Dr. Tupper) complained that the Reformers of Upper Canada had deserted him in his struggles for Union in his own Province. He (Mr. Mackenzie) was glad that the Lower Provinces had entered the Union, but he had felt that he had no right to interfere in their local politics. He had not, for his own part, solicited the help or alliance of the gentlemen from the Lower Provinces, knowing that local politics and party interests which divided them, would require their attention, and he did not think that anything in the course taken by himself and friends could be construed into a wrong done to the mem-

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ber for Cumberland. With regard to the question under consideration, if we cannot take possession of the North-West, because it is said to be indefensible, we might as well give up improving our farms in the West, and give up our country altogether. Referring to Mr. Blake’s objection-that this measure was not promised in the programme submitted on the 20th November-he said, if Government had, in bringing forward this measure, given them a little more of the bill of fare than they had announced, he would not at all object, since the addition was of such good quality. Although he was opposed to the Government in bringing forward this great measure he would give them his hearty support. He read extracts from Confederation debates to show that this measure was one which the Reform Party had advocated, and was in accordance with their views. The more he studied this question the more he was convinced of the necessity and importance of opening up this territory immediately. In matters like this of national importance he would discuss and act upon them without any reference to party proclivities.

Francis Jones [Leeds North and Grenville North] rose to speak amidst general impatience and cries of “question”.

John A. Macdonald [Kingston] suggested he might speak on the motion of concurrence to-morrow.

The resolutions were then reported with amendments, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.

Luther Holton [Châteauguay] gave notice of an amendment declaring in substance that it was inexpedient to adopt the proposed address, until the nature, extent, and value of the claims with which the acquisition of the territory would be burdened, had been first ascertained.

The House adjourned at five minutes past two o’clock.