Document Information

Date: 1903-10-09
By: Canada (Parliament)
Citation: Canada, Senate Debates, 9th Parl, 3th Sess, 1903 at 1311 – 1328.
Other formats: TBA

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ADVANCES TO GOVERNMENT OF NORTH-WEST TERRITORIES BILL.

THIRD READING.

The Order of the Day being called:

Committee of the Whole House on (Bill 256) an Act to provide for Advances to the Government of the North-west Territories.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—This is directly a money Bill. I do not know that we should go into committee on it, because it is a Bill granting some $250,000 to the North-west government.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—I was not aware yesterday that my hon. friend was going to send it to committee, and as it was six o’clock when it came up for second reading, I refrained from speaking upon the Bill. Without now going into committee we might regard this stage as a proper occasion upon which to discuss the whole Bill. I direct the attention of the House to the fact that the proposal is to carry to the credit of the North-west Territories, $250,000 and to also make an advance of $250,000 on capital account. I might say the subject of the Bill has created considerable discussion between the two governments, for some time past. One feature to which I have alluded, namely the charge of $250,000 on capital account, is one that certainly has not been approved of by the territorial government or by public sentiment in the west. The government may possibly have regarded itself as giving this money in a liberal and generous spirit, but I would point out, as has been pointed out on former occasions, that the policy of this government towards the territorial government has been of a parsimonious character. Instead of a sufficient amount being carried to the credit of that government from year to year in the estimates, the proposed expenditure of the territorial government has been, I might say annually, cut down to such an extent as to preclude that government from meeting the absolutely necessary requirements of the public, largely if not altogether, created by the tide of immigration, which during the last two years has been, I am glad to say, flowing into that country. I think it was last year the territorial government outlined public improvements that were absolutely necessary, namely, public works, and education which would have involved an expenditure of a million dollars. The then Commissioner of Public Works, Mr. A. L. Sifton, now the Chief Justice of the

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territories, took this matter up with the Dominion government and indicated at that time that at least $880,000 was absolutely necessary for the expenditure of 1903. In a sessional paper brought down in the House of Commons it will be seen that in a letter written to the Minister of Finance by Mr. Haultain, dated 20th April, 1903, this statement is made:

For instance, representations were made on December 17 and January 9 last by Mr. A. L. Sifton, the then territorial treasurer, that it was necessary that parliament should be asked to provide for the expenditure of the sum of $880,000 during the year 1903, upon the services devolving upon the government of the territories. On February 21, whilst in Ottawa and at the request of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, I submitted a carefully detailed statement of our affairs, showing the nature of the requirements of the country, and pointing out particularly that the public necessities were to a very large extent due to the rapid influx of population, a cause entirely beyond our control but which, to some extent, may be attributed to the Dominion government’s efforts to direct immigration to the west. I also pointed out that between December and February conditions had so far changed that the amount asked for in December would be entirely insufficient to provide for necessary expenditures in new and unforeseen directions. In December, we asked that parliament should provide $880,000 for our use during 1903. As a reply to that request, the government proposes to vote $457,979. This is the amount as was voted last year and which fell short of the smallest possible expenditure we could make by $250,000. Climatic conditions created a general and urgent necessity for replacing a large number of bridges that had been carried away by floods, but that necessity only made it impossible for us to consider other public undertakings of comparatively less urgency, but which are all calling for attention this year. If we were $250,000 short last year, what we will be this year with increased demands and necessities in every direction, I can safely leave you to form your own estimate.

Without going over the ground again I would here simply say that if we have found the necessity for making capital expenditure out of an annual income a particularly onerous burden, the difficulties of our financial position will be rendered only the greater by the strong temptation to draw upon a capital account, should such an account be established, for expenditures that should, under every rule of legitimate finance, be provided for only out of annual income, but which condition of affairs would be forced upon us by the manner in which the Dominion government fulfils its self-imposed duty of providing for the peace, order and good government of these territories.

I trust that the further consideration of this whole subject, promised in your telegram of this date, will result in some more definite recognition of our necessities than has hitherto been evidenced. The one, and the best solution of all these difficulties has, on several occasions of late, been suggested to the Dominion government, and it seems to me that I might well close this communication by an expression of the opinion that just so long as the provincial status is withheld from the territories will it be necessary for the government of the territories to direct attention with increasing force and emphasis to the present unsatisfactory manner of making financial provision for the public requirements of the country.

Now, then, we find this condition of affairs. In a country which is being rapidly settled up, into which I suppose 100,000 settlers have gone during the present year, and which has increased its population so rapidly as to warrant the government in the present Redistribution Bill increasing the representation in the federal parliament from four members to ten, one can easily appreciate the futility of the government for one moment imagining that the grants which heretofore have been made, will continue to be adequate to the growing necessities of that vast country. Hon. gentlemen will simply have to consider for a moment how inadequate it will be if the present and future grants should be based upon the parsimonious policy which has hitherto been followed namely, paring the government down to the absolute necessities which arose from time to time at a period when the population of the territories was almost stagnant. I need not point out to my hon. friend that in the matter of education alone the sum of $250,000 has been voted. It is absolutely necessary that educational institutions should be established throughout the length and breadth of those territories which geographically are almost an empire in themselves, and it is in the public interest not in the interest alone of the territories, but the interest of the entire Dominion, that the growing population of that country should be well educated, that not only the higher educational advantages should be extended to the children of settlers, but that it should be regarded as indispensable that the elementary rudiments of an education should be furnished to the people in every settlement, particularly foreigners who are coming from all parts of Europe and who should have their children educated in the language in which we speak and made familiar with the institutions by which we are governed. Over a year ago, $250,000 was appropriated for educational purposes in the territories. As I have said, that has been found to be entirely inadequate, and the demands which are at present made upon the territorial government will probably

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induce them to make estimates almost reaching $300,000, to meet simply the increased demands for elementary educational institutions in that vast country. Well, when this government votes only $457,000, out of which must be taken almost $300,000 in the first instance, for educational institutions, I need not further point out the inadequacy of such a vote. That is but a feature I pointed out, namely, educational institutions; then there are public works such as roads and bridges which are absolutely necessary. I need not point out that while there may be main lines of railways running throughout the territories, colonization highway roads must be opened up, streams must be bridged, and public works of that character involving very large expenditures, must positively be made, otherwise it will be impossible for the demands of the settlers to be acceded to by the territorial government. The question has resolved itself into this: if the Dominion government refuse to give a grant adequate to the necessities of the case, and refuse to give provincial autonomy to the territories, whether the territorial government will not have to throw up their hands and refuse to administer the affairs of that country. So long as parliament has given governmental machinery to the territories, so long as there is vested in the hands of the territorial government the power to administer the affairs of the territories, to carry out public works and to establish educational institutions and to practically do the other work of a province, so long is this parliament in duty bound to furnish such funds as will be necessary to meet the public demands. This consideration must not also be overlooked, that while all the machinery of government obtains in the territories for the purpose which I have mentioned, yet the territorial government is helpless in the matter of obtaining funds if this parliament will not vote them.

The revenues to be derived from the territories by the sale of the lands, by the disposition of the mineral interests and otherwise are entirely vested in the federal government. We are in leading strings in that country yet, from a governmental standpoint, and while there has been a very emphatic demand on the federal government, not only by the public, but by the legislature, that provincial autonomy should be extended to that country, yet the government of the day has not seen fit to accede to that demand. So long as this situation continues, I cannot impress too strongly on the government, in the interests of the entire Dominion, that a change should be made, because if the absolute requirements of new settlement are not fully met, it will not only enure to the disadvantage of the territories, but must be equally and strongly felt throughout the Dominion at large. The interests of the territories are the interests of the entire Dominion, and I need not point out here that the growth of the North-west is really what gives vitality to a very great extent, if not to a greater extent, than any other quality, to the growth of the whole Dominion. It seems to me that that does not admit of any doubt. If you could by any possibility wipe out that western country, the vitality of the remaining parts of the Dominion would be extremely weak. Hence it is necessary that those from the eastern provinces, and the government of the country particularly, should regard the possibilities of this Dominion as being very largely, if not entirely, wrapped up in the development of those vast territories. So much for that feature. As I say, there are two items in the Bill, one of $250,000, intended to cover the deficit of last year, which will not cover the deficit entirely, but this government in its wisdom has seen fit to vote $250,000, to be applied in covering the expenses of the territorial government for last year. But a more objectionable feature is, in addition to this sum not being large enough to cover the deficit, this government proposes to charge the amount to capital account. By what process of reasoning this government, that holds in its hand the leading strings of the territorial government, should charge $250,000 to capital account, and make that chargeable with interest, it is difficult to understand. It is certainly a proposition that does not receive the approval of the territorial government or of public sentiment in the North-west Territories. That has been a very debatable question, and the territorial government, notwithstanding the declaration of this government that the intention was to make it chargeable to capital account, has refused to accept it upon that basis. In the correspondence which will be found on the same

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page of the sessional papers to which I have already alluded, I might point out a letter which was written by the Premier of the territories to the Minister of Finance, and dated June 15th, 1903. Dealing with this phase of capital account, Mr. Haultain says, amongst other things:

With regard to the question of an advance on capital account I can only refer to my letter of April 20, and the position therein taken up. An advance on capital account is nothing more or less than a loan upon which eventually we should have to pay 5 per cent per annum. We feel indisposed to consider an invitation to borrow money as a satisfactory settlement of our request for the necessary amounts to carry on the affairs of this country. At all events the proposition to give us an advance on capital account of $250,000, already debited with $84,000 for the bridges mentioned above, is one which we cannot entertain. We cannot reasonably object to the requirement of the consent of the Governor General in Council to any broad scheme of expenditure under this heading, but to be obliged to ask such consent to every detail would be as burdensome as it would be unnecessary.

Now, in that connection I may say there is to be debited against this $250,000 an item of $84,000 for the reconstruction of two bridges, one at Lethbridge and one at McLeod, which had been originally constructed by the Dominion government, which were regarded as of the Department of Public Works of Canada, and which by an Order in Council this government proposed to reconstruct; yet, after deliberately passing an Order in Council solemnly agreeing with the territories and if the territories would reconstruct those bridges, which had been washed out by the floods last year, the money would be reimbursed to the territorial government. Notwithstanding that arrangement, we have this audacious attempt to charge up the $84,000 against this vote of $250,000, to reimburse the federal government for replacing their own works at Lethbridge and McLeod. Arising out of that consideration, namely, that of building bridges, it does not require a very potent appeal to hon. gentlemen for them to at once appreciate the fact that if the Dominion government, through its various channels which are at work to-day, not only on this continent, but on the continent of Europe, will place from 100,000 to 200,000 immigrants on the broad prairies, they must necessarily do something for them in the way of building roads and bridges. It does not require any reasoning on my part to point out to hon. gentlemen not only the equity of such a proposition, but the absolute necessity that it should be done. I might point out that those territories are traversed in all directions by streams which in the spring time are in mountain flood, and except very expensive bridges are constructed, which would be entirely beyond the financial strength of the territorial government, it would be utterly impossible for the settlers in that vast country to reach their various markets. Hence the Dominion government for several years past have been constructing bridges over the main highways and over the unfordable streams and I cannot point out too strongly the necessity of the government being impressed with the desirability of keeping pace with the growth of the country in the carrying out of necessary public works. Now why should the government haggle over a paltry sum of $250,000 or $500,000 in thus keeping pace with the rapid growth of that magnificent country. When we take into consideration the fact that parliament has voted practically $74,000,000 of estimates this year, also proposed railway subsidies of $13,000,000, also lead bounties, steel bounties and iron bounties which will probably approximate three or four millions, also in addition thereto practically $100,000,000 for a national transportation system—why, I ask should this government, or any other government haggle in this miserable two-penny shopkeeping way of carrying out adequate improvements in that vast country which I say gives the throb and vitality of energy to the entire business of this Dominion? If hon. gentlemen will go through the estimates which have been voted, not only this year, but in former years, they will find that no estimates of any considerable extent have been voted in any year to public works in the territories. I say without fear of contradiction that there is no part of this Dominion in which less public money is being expended than in the North-west Territories. Owing to the rapid development of the territories the government as a matter of policy has not considered it advisable nor desirable that large public works should be carried out in any particular locality. The consequence is that very small sums have been voted from time to time for temporary works,

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and temporary buildings, since this government came into power. I cannot recall at the present moment any public building that has been erected in the whole of the North-west Territories under this government that would do justice to one of the small towns in the eastern provinces. I am not saying that that is inadvisable, because what might be a sufficient expenditure on a public building to-day might be entirely inadequate for the demands or requirements of ten years hence. But I say, in view of the fact that public money is not being expended in the territories, notwithstanding its very rapid development the government should certainly be generous and liberal to a fault in keeping pace with the rapidly developing settlement of those vast prairies. So much for that phase of the case. Might I point out to my hon. friend the Secretary of State that, from a political standpoint, if this government desires to remain in power it should certainly listen to its friends. Sometimes even public men do not succeed in making a deep impression on the government as to the necessities of wise public expenditure, but when the party men approach the government and point out that party advantages are to be gained by a liberal expenditure of money, the government invariably becomes responsive to that class of argument. In those sessional papers to which I refer, Mr. Bulyea, the territorial commissioner of public works, who is one of the high priests of Liberalism in the North-west Territories, makes sufficiently free to correspond with the Premier of the Dominion as to the effect upon his political party of the government’s parsimony with reference to territorial expenditure, and by some means or other this letter, which possibly was not intended to see the light of day, but to be considered only by the faithful, became impressed upon the pages of our public records. He writes the Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.MG., Premier of Canada, Ottawa, as follows:

You will please excuse the liberty I take in addressing you, if it is a liberty to lay before you facts that I consider will be of material influence on the welfare of the Liberal party in the North-west Territories.

You are, of course, cognizant of all the representations that the territorial government have made in reference to increase of the financial assistance that is voted to us from time to time, and the arguments that have been advanced why a material increase is absolutely necessary, if the alternative of provincial autonomy were not granted to us. I have had considerable correspondence with the federal members representing the territories, who were kind enough to apprize me of the general representations they had made to your government, and I advised them that I consider that if such were adopted it would reasonably satisfy the general public in the territories, and would put your candidates and your supporters—

Now will the government listen to this appeal, and if on no other ground, will they not do it on the grounds of political expediency? The letter continues:

And would put your candidates and supporters in the coming elections in a position with which they could fight with zeal, and I am pleased to say, with every prospect of success.

If I were unpatriotic I would ask the government to pursue the disastrous course which they have been pursuing with reference to the territories, but on grounds of patriotism I am willing entirely to forego the advantages that the Conservative party might secure in the territories if the government will only listen to Mr. Bulyea’s appeal of expediency. The letter continues:

The supplementary grant, and the addition to the main vote, while not as much as we asked for, will be of very material assistance to me in the work of my department as Commissioner of Public Works. The capital advance tendered is also needed for the construction of the large and permanent structures that must be completed to meet the requirements of the large influx of settlers into the country. I regret to say, however, that not only as a member of the territorial government, but as a citizen of the North-west Territories, I must dissent most strongly from the proposition to charge up against this vote the large expenditure of $84,000 which is purely and simply for the reconstruction of two federal public works, viz.:—the bridges over the Old Man’s and Belly rivers, erected by the late Conservative government.

During the floods of last year these two bridges were washed out, and your government, through its officers, agreed to have them replaced by permanent structures. Your officers in the territories reported on the necessity of such reconstruction, took charge of the old bridges, and sold the old material. Later, through the late Commissioner of Public Works, the Hon. A. L. Sifton, the matter was taken up with the federal Public Works Department, and as we have a fairly large staff of competent bridgemen, and have been very successful in the construction of bridges of a less size than these, it was arranged that the territorial government should proceed with the construction of the bridges, and that they would be recouped for such expenditure to the amount of $55,000 in the case of the bridge over the Belly river at Lethbridge, and $29,000 in the case of the bridge over the Old Man’s river at Macleod.

For your information I attach a copy of extract from the report of the Committee of the

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Honourable the Privy Council, approved by His Excellency on February 6, 1903. On the authority of this Order in Council my department proceeded with the work. Considerable preliminary work has already been done in making the necessary approaches to the bridges, tenders have been called both for the material and the concrete piers, and for the steel superstructure, and I maintain that the federal government cannot, in honour, recede from the position that they have taken as shown by this Order in Council, even if there were no political reasons—

Will my hon. friend mark that. The letter continues:

Even if there were no political reasons for carrying out their definite agreement in this matter.

Official correspondence from the government will no doubt be laid before you in due course, protesting against the suggested charges, and while the matter is, in a sense, ‘sub judice,’ we cannot of course proceed to use the suggested advance on our capital account.

A refusal to use this money on capital account. The letter proceeds:

I trust, therefore, that you will see the necessity of meeting the reasonable views not only of the North-west government but of your friends who are members of the territorial assembly, and who uphold unanimously our government in claiming that the territories are entitled to have these federal structures replaced at the general expense of the Dominion of Canada.

GEO. H. V. BULYEA.

And then so as to thoroughly impress upon the government the political or party expediency of this appeal, this novel endorsation is subjoined to the letter of Mr. Bulyea:

The undersigned members of the legislative assembly strongly approve of the tenor of the above letter:—

George W. Brown. L. Geo. de Veter. J. W. Woolf. W. J. Finley. C. A. Fisher. A. D. McIntyre. Charles Fisher. A. S. Smith. P. Talbot. B. Prince. R. A. Wallace. J. A. Simpson. A. S. Rosenroll. Thos. Macnutt. Alex. C. Rutherford.

There are here some fifteen names, all members of the Liberal party and members of the local legislature, so that Mr. Bulyea with the valiant backing of half the members of the legislature, all Liberals, has appealed to this government that upon grounds of expediency if not upon grounds of fair-play, more generous treatment should be accorded to the territorial government. Now as to the repudiation of liability for the $84,000.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—The hon. gentleman need not go into that, the item is in the estimate—it is not charged against the government. I turned up the estimate while my hon. friend was speaking.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—I find that they have already debited it.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—The account must have been altered. Because I have looked up the estimate before parliament.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—What item is that? The item for the Old Man’s bridge?

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—Yes, the bridge at Lethbridge and the Old Man’s bridge.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—The Bill would not necessarily show that this $84,000 was debited against capital account; that will be a matter of book-keeping and instead of paying over to the territorial government the $250,000, they will credit the territorial government with that debit of $84,000. With that presentation of the case I leave it with the government and would simply point out that it is high time that the present government should give greater consideration to the requirements of the territories than has been done heretofore, and, as I have said, if they will not regard the voice of public sentiment along those higher and more ethical lines I would appeal to the government on the ground advanced by Mr. Bulyea, namely on grounds of political expediency—

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—We could not accept that suggestion.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—No, but the government would not act upon it.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—The hon. gentleman must remember we have been increasing largely the contributions to the North-west Territories and more particularly during the last year. While the hon. gentleman was speaking, I was counting up the various sums and I find they will amount to about a million and a quarter. There is $450,000 debited in the yearly estimates, and there is $250,000, and at page 29 of the supplementary estimates there is the additional grant required for schools, clerical assistance and printing and so on, $250,000. Then I find the Public Works Department are authorized to go on and complete the Belly river bridge at Lethbridge and the Old Man’s bridge, amounting altogether to $85,000, but in

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addition to that there are various other items which I turned up while my hon. friend was speaking. There are items for telegraph lines.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—They are Dominion works.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—They should not be considered, because there is some revenue supposed to be attached to them. Speaking of public buildings, I find there are $75,000 for buildings, the Edmonton jail, the Prince Albert court-house, and a number of other small items.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—Some of those are re-votes. I think those were on the estimates for some years. In fact they were started at the last general election.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—That $75,000 referred to is in the supplementary estimates just brought down.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—Yes, the supplementary estimates now before parliament, but there were some other items. I was glancing at the figures and they amount to about $1,200,000. I fully appreciate the needs of the North-west, but it must be remembered that the government are expending a great deal of money in other ways. The emigrants that are going in are looked after by the Department of the Interior and the railway subsidies to which my hon. friend refers, a large portion of them, will be spent in the territories; in fact one of the reasons that induced the government to give this very liberal aid to the Mackenzie & Mann road, to lend them rather $13,000 per mile, was for the very purpose of having the money spent in the North-west Territories, so that the people going in there would have the opportunity of securing employment on the road, and then a proportion of the amount required for the building of the Trans-Canada Railroad will be spent through the territories, and they will get the benefit of it. We have spent very large sums of money for the benefit of the North-west, and I fully appreciate we will get value for it. I have the most abounding faith in that country and believe it will return to the older parts of Canada, all that the older parts of Canada have expended on it; but my hon. friend will appreciate that it is very difficult to keep pace with the growth of the North-west, because it has been somewhat phenomenal, in the last year particularly. No one ever dreamed that 100,000 people were going in there during the year 1903, and the reason that the Finance Minister thought it the wisest way to charge up $250,000, or such other moneys as may be wanted from time to time, is that it was a simpler way of making the advances. When the autonomy of the territories has become established, it will be time enough to discuss what the territories ought to be charged with, or whether they ought to be charged with anything. I am not foreshadowing what the financial agreement will be. They were asking for very large sums of money. They could not, of course, go into the details of what the money was required for; they needed it for present necessities, and if you gave them three or four or five millions, they could expend it probably, and probably to the advantage of the country, but it would not be a judicious thing to do, and more particularly in view of the reading of the letter of Mr. Bulyea, practically asking a bribe for the North-west. The Premier would be shocked about making any liberal advance. We might be charged with attempting to secure the vote of the North-west—we wish to be quite independent of any such consideration, and we have to be cautious. I think the amount this year is very nearly one and a quarter million dollars.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—I might point out the grant which the hon. gentleman refers to for education and the grant for public works make up the $457,979.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—But in the estimates there were $450,000.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—I think not.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—Oh, yes; this is wholly independent of the former advances. There was something in the first estimates. However, I can assure my hon. friend the government will take into consideration all the reasons he has urged why this liberal treatment should be extended to the North-west, but I think that he ought not to ignore the fact that the government are contributing in a great variety of ways through other channels than strictly through the territorial government in advancing the interests of that country and bringing in immigration, and in a variety of ways through the Department of the Interior. The sales realized

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from land have scarcely more than paid the expenses. We are giving away our land in the North-west. The sales of land there have been by companies who acquired lands years before. I think my hon. friend will have nothing to complain of after this year.

Hon. Mr. PERLEY—I think my hon. friend has a great deal to complain of. I am quite in accord with the remarks made by my hon. friend from Calgary (Hon. Mr. Lougheed). The Secretary of State spoke about the immigration into that part of Canada being a benefit to the North-west Territories. So far as revenue is concerned, I say distinctly that the immigration is a detriment to the North-west Territories. Our lands in the North-west are controlled by the federal government. Until recently, I have been opposed to giving of provincial autonomy to the North-west Territories, because the necessities for the administration of the government have become so great in the last three or four years through the immigration brought in there by the federal government—we find no fault with that—that the territorial government has not sufficient funds to supply schools and build roads and bridges for the increasing population. The Premier of the North-west Territories, two or three years ago, stated in a speech made at Yorkton that one of two things must be done: Either the federal government must provide more funds for them, or they must resort to direct taxation to provide for the education of the people, and the construction of roads and bridges. The government of the North-west Territories does not get a farthing of revenue from anything taken into the country for the last three years or any other number of years. The only revenue they get from the population is derived from licenses. The revenue from the great immigration into that country flows into the federal treasury; the government of the North-west Territories does not get a cent. There is no part of the Dominion which contributes as much to the federal revenue, according to population, as the North-west Territories. We do not manufacture anything for ourselves in that country. We are the people who give a stimulus to the trade of Canada. If it had not been for the opening up of the North-west Territories, and the consumption in that part of Canada of manufactured goods, the older provinces would be in a less prosperous condition than they are to-day. The people of that country want roads and bridges and schools. To the credit of the people they have built excellent school-houses by direct taxation. They have provided the means out of their own pockets, and throughout Assiniboia, and as far west as Calgary you will find as good a class of schools as are to be seen anywhere.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—Do they not get a portion of the school money?

Hon. Mr. PERLEY—No; I can speak for every town in Assiniboia, I know more of that part of the territories than further west. We built our schools with money raised on our own individual properties, not a dollar of it came from the funds of the North-west Territories, or the federal government. While the federal government derives all the benefit of the rapidly increasing population in the territories from the increased revenue derived from customs and excise duties, they supply the territorial government with a bare pittance. I claim that we have the best school system in the world, and our schools are brought within a reasonable reach of the settlers. No country that I know of can compare with the Canadian North-west Territories in the provision that has been made for roads and bridges and schools. The government at Ottawa ought to be able to give some portion of the revenue they derive from that section of the country towards education and public works. The federal government does not give one-tenth of the money derived from the settlers in the North-west to the territorial government. The construction of roads and bridges in that country is very expensive. It is not a wooded country, and what timber is found there is not suited for the construction of bridges. We have to import the wood we require for that purpose. There is a combine on the lumber supply in that country. I cannot buy a thousand feet of lumber from a manufacturer direct. Is it not outrageous in a civilized country which boasts of its freedom—that a man cannot buy a carload of such a necessary article as lumber, because of a combine? That combine is fostered by the government, because they will take no steps to put an end to it. We have to build iron

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bridges, and on the iron we import into the territories there is a heavy freight rate. The result is our bridges are very expensive. We have a great number of them to build. The rivers are numerous and difficult to bridge, not from the fact that they have water all the year round, but because they run in deep ravines, and it is expensive to build roadways down to the river, and up the banks again. Not only that, but labour is very dear, living is expensive, and the freight rates are high. Therefore we require more money than is required in sections of the country where these elements of cost do not exist. The burning cry in that part of the country is, we want provincial autonomy, in order that we may be able to tax ourselves to keep up our schools, and sustain the progress with which we have started. The Doukhobors, the Galicians, and others living today in Europe, will ten years hence get the benefit of our heavy expenditure of to-day. Settlement is scattered all over that country. That is an unfortunate thing. It was a great mistake, and one which I condemned at the time, when that country was opened up, that so many railway charters were granted. When I went to Winnipeg, in 1882, every man I met told me to go to some distant section of the country—to buy a cayuse and a buckboard and take a fortnight’s supplies and go out and select land. I asked if I could not go by railway; they said no, but there will be one soon. I said no, I will keep within sound of the steam whistle; but others did not do as I did. I have known men to settle 100 to 150 miles from a railway, and the government of the North-west Territories has to build roads and bridges for them, and supply money to pay teachers. All over that country we have had to build a system of railways that would accommodate 5,000,000 of people, because the settlement is scattered everywhere. Every corner of that vast territory has a settler, and the territorial government must build a road for him. The same road would accommodate 500,000 settlers. The time has come when the government should be generous—not generous, but fair. We do not ask one-half, not even one-quarter of what we should get. If you figure up what we contribute to the revenue, we would be quite satisfied to get 25 per cent of it for the North-west Territories, and that would not be an unfair thing to do. At this stage of the growth and development of that country you could advance no argument to intending settlers so strong as to tell them that we have a splendid school system, and excellent roads and bridges. The territorial government deserves great praise for the school law and the school system in existence there. When I went to the Northwest council in 1885, we gave a large grant towards supporting the schools, but we had plenty of money. The federal government at that time did not have to give us as much as they do now, but in proportion to our wants, they gave us large sums of money, so that we were able to support our schools in good shape. But that amount has dwindled down and the people have to support the schools by taxing themselves. Though we have a population of about 250,000 in that country you refuse us provincial autonomy; you keep us as mere serfs. You say, take the pittance we give you, and we cannot help ourselves. Mention has been made of the building of the Transcontinental Railway and the Mackenzie and Mann railway. We get no benefit from that; on the contrary, it means a heavier expense for building roads and bridges. If a hundred thousand people were to come in for the Mackenzie and Mann road, it would not contribute one farthing to the exchequer of the North-west Territories, but it will be a benefit to the government here.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—What I said was the expenditure of the money would help in the meantime.

Hon. Mr. PERLEY—The men that come to the North-west are not navvies. They go there to take possession of the soil and raise wheat. A suggestion was made some years ago that a railway should be built in patches so that men could get work, but our answer was that we were not navvies; we did not want to build railways, we wanted to till the soil. If the settlers work on the railway, what is the good of them coming in, and of what value will the railway be? The people who settle here want to become citizens of the country, and in that particular the road is of no special good to them any further than it will open up land for new settlers; but if these settlers do not

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devote their time to cultivating the soil, of what use will it be to build the road? I understand the policy of the government is to take the lands of the North-west Territories and hold them as security for the bonus they are giving to the road. Is not that the policy?

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—I think not.

Hon. Mr. PERLEY—I saw it stated the other day that it was intended to hold the lands of the North-west Territories as security.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—I do not think any such policy has been announced.

Hon. Mr. FERGUSON—It was indicated by the Minister of the Interior in another place.

Hon. Mr. PERLEY—If the lands are set aside for that purpose, what have we to fall back on? We will be denied the privilege that every other province enjoys of having control of the public domain within its limits. We are to be serfs to the rest of Canada. I say that is wrong. The government should come down with a good liberal grant—not a liberal grant, but a fair grant. The people should be given enough money to carry on the government of the country. My hon. friend from Calgary spoke about the letter of Mr. Bulyea. He had exhausted every argument. Mr. Haultain had been writing to Mr. Sifton and Mr. Ross, two supporters of the government here, and using every argument possible to induce the government to give his government money, and when they found every reasonable argument unavailing, they say: ‘Give it to us for party purposes.’ The man was driven to it, and he used the strongest argument, and even the strongest argument has failed. The government should give us enough money to enable us to live on an equality with other people, to keep up good schools, roads and bridges, so that when immigrants come there, we can tell them: ‘You are coming to the best country in the world; you are coming to a land where the soil is fertile, where there are good roads and bridges, and where you will find the best school system in the world.’ If the government will give us sufficient money to do that, they will have the strongest argument possible to attract immigration.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—Is the hon. gentleman aware of the fact that there is an item of $250,000 in the supplementary estimates for that purpose?

Hon. Mr. PERLEY—Only $250,000! And you brag that you expect to have 250,000 settlers in that country in one year!

Hon. Mr. McMULLEN—I have listened to the discussions in the House of Commons and also to the debates here since it has been my privilege to be a member of the Senate, with regard to the expenditure of money in the North-west. Our friends in the North-west are perhaps a little too hard to please. An immense amount has been spent in the territories on public buildings. I remember adding up the amount spent in Regina alone, and it was no less than $350,000, for the construction of public buildings, including accommodation for the North-west Mounted Police and a residence for the Lieutenant Governor. Money has been poured out there in a more lavish way than in any other part of the country that I know of. My hon. friend speaks about building schools; that they have to tax themselves for their schools. We have got to do the same in Ontario, and every other province. Why should my hon. friend complain that they have got to build their own schools. We have to do so here. There is no grant in Ontario for the building of schools. The school sections have got to erect their own schools and tax themselves for every dollar that goes into those buildings. Why does my hon. friend complain that they have got to do in the North-west what they are doing in other sections of this Dominion, and nothing more and nothing less. Now, with regard to improvements, I am quite willing to say that the government should carefully consider every demand that is made and that is reasonable and fair for a grant for general improvements, for the construction of bridges and so on for the North-west, but really, I am afraid that my hon. friends from the North-west Territories have been so accustomed to have their demands complied with that they have the idea that the treasury of this Dominion should be open to their call and they should get everything they ask for. That appears to be the feeling as far as I can gather. We are glad to know there is a large settlement going on in the North-west Territories. We are

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proud to learn that it is filling up so rapidly. and we earnestly hope it will develop into the grand country my hon. friend speaks of. We shall all be proud of it. He says the immigrants going in there as navvies will be of no use to the country. I am sure they eat potatoes, they eat flour, they eat beef and use pork, and where do they get it? Do they bring it with them? Are these articles not grown in the North-west Territories? Do you not supply settlers with these goods, and do they not pay you money for them? Is not that an advantage? My hon. friend would lead us to suppose that they should get a bounty for every immigrant sent in, or that the government should pay so much a head for the privilege of sending immigrants there. I always understood that increased population to a country, even a new country, was an advantage, and it certainly is. These people will take up certain districts of land, a certain percentage of them will become settlers, and they will contribute in the way of taxation no doubt the same as others. I believe the North-west is receiving at the hands of the present government fair and reasonable consideration. I believe they were altogether overfed by the previous government, because the extravagance that characterized the expenditure there was something enormous. I quite admit that possibly there were conditions then that do not exist now. The accommodation in the way of railways was not as good as it is at the present moment, and there was more inconvenience and expense connected with the erection of public buildings, nevertheless there was a great deal of extravagance connected with the establishment of the public buildings and in connection with the Northwest Mounted Police. We are glad that is drawing rapidly to an end, and we hope the North-west Territories will prosper, but they should be reasonable and not be unreasonably and everlastingly yelling out for further grants and demanding donations.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—Would my hon. friend just consider this problem for a moment: it may be of advantage to us in the North-west Territories. Assuming we have to depend upon the federal government for the building of roads and bridges, that is to make appropriations for the building of roads and bridges, and the money is not voted, would my hon. friend regard it in the public interest that there should be a cessation of all public works?

Hon. Mr. McMULLEN—I think not. I have already stated, that I think the government should fairly consider all the demands made and where there is a necessity for the expenditure of money for roads and bridges I believe it should be made in a reasonable and proper way. I am quite satisfied of that, and I have no doubt the government are taking steps to find out what is absolutely necessary. I do not find fault with the people from the North-west making a demand for all they can get—I suppose they like to have plenty of public money to spend up there, and I daresay the North-west government are also anxious to get a large amount of money under their control; but while they are making those demands it is prudent, on behalf of the government, to investigate how far they would be justified—considering the demands and the necessities of other sections of the country—in making grants up to what the people in the North-west would demand. I have no doubt the government have fairly balanced the matter and come to the conclusion that the amounts they are now setting aside for necessary improvements will be, to a large extent, equal to the demands of the present moment.

Hon. Mr. WATSON—I would just like to say a few words in connection with this matter. A good deal of complaint has been made for a number of years about the Dominion government not granting autonomy to the North-west Territories. It is a question in the minds of a great many people in the territories as to whether it would be better to have autonomy granted them at present, or whether it is better to continue under the present arrangement. There is no doubt in my mind that the Dominion government for the last few years has been treating the North-west Territories very liberally with regard to their finances. I have before me the estimates that have been made since 1892 by the North-west Territories government, setting forth the amount of money required to carry on the administration of affairs in the North-west Territories, and for a number of years their request fell considerably short of their necessities, but during the last few years, since immigration has gone in there very rapidly, the

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Dominion government recognizing the fact that they have to assist in supplying funds to enable the territorial government to meet the responsibilities which they are called upon to assume, such as constructing roads, building bridges and maintaining of schools, have increased the grant estimated for 1903, which is $1,130,000.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—What is that for?

Hon. Mr. WATSON—That includes the total estimates asked for for public works, schools and everything else. That is the estimate they would require for the carrying on of the affairs of the North-west Territories.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—I do not desire to interrupt my hon. friend, but was that given to the territorial government, or is it the total amount for public works which belonged to the Dominion as well?

Hon. Mr. WATSON—No, the territorial government. This is the amount asked for this year. As a matter of fact, I have just got the figures from a gentleman who is more conversant with the matter than I am—they have received this year over $1,200,000; in other words they have received more money this year than they have asked for. The supplementaries actually provide for the territorial government more money for carrying on the affairs of the North-west than they have asked for in their own estimates. I would just like to call to the attention of my hon. friend from Calgary, and he knows probably more than I do about this matter, that a decision was given as to the taxation of the Canadian Pacific Railway lands and property in Manitoba, and according to that decision until the territory is formed into a province, the territorial government have the right to tax the Canadian Pacific Railway lands, roadbed and everything to raise a fund for school purposes. I may be mistaken, but at the present time the territorial government have the power to tax the Canadian Pacific Railway property for school purposes until the territories form themselves into a province. I would like to say, in reply to what the hon. gentleman from Wolseley (Hon. Mr. Perley) has said, that the people are building their own schools. The people throughout the provinces of the Dominion build their schools by direct taxation. There is no government aid given for building schools, but the people of the territories have the benefit of taxing the Canadian Pacific Railway lands for building schools. In the province of Manitoba they had to make demands on the federal government year after year in the early days, in fact they are doing it yet, and in that province the government has been compelled to give guarantees for the construction of railroads. In the last few years the province of Manitoba has undertaken to guarantee bonds to the extent of $20,000,000 for the building of railroads. The North-west Territories are getting those roads constructed at the expense of the Dominion government, and have not to pay a dollar. It seems to me if they can get railroads assisted by the federal government, and get provincial autonomy later on and start off clear of debt with railroads constructed, they are certainly in a much better position than any province in the Dominion of Canada. Now, I have a comparison here as to the amount per capita that is paid to the different provinces and the territories according to the last census. In Ontario the amount is 61½ cents; in Quebec, 66 cents; Nova Scotia, 94½ cents; British Columbia, $1.72; Manitoba, $2.05¼; North-west Territory, $4.47. They are doing fairly well. And when I have pointed out to the House that the territorial government this year are receiving more money from the federal government than their estimate was for 1903, it does not seem to me there is much room for complaint. Starting at 1892-93 they asked for that year $368,000; they got only $195,000, or 53 per cent of what their estimate was. If you estimate it on the percentages of what they asked for, for I do not suppose the territorial government asked for more than they required, in 1892 they got 53 per cent of what they asked for; 1893, 54 per cent; 1894, 55 per cent; 1895, 71 per cent—and that 71 per cent probably had a little to do along the line of Mr. Bulyea’s letter, because that was just the year previous to the election of 1896—in 1896 they got 62 per cent of what they asked for.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—Mr. Bulyea’s letter was written this year.

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Hon. Mr. WATSON—Yes, but probably there were letters of a similar character written in 1895. In 1897 they got 70 per cent; in 1898, 64 per cent; in 1899, 53 per cent. Then you will remember, in the last year, when they received only 53 per cent they were allowed to retain $163,000 collected on account of licenses in the Yukon Territory, which went certainly to make up a large amount of that deficit which they failed in getting from the federal government in 1899. Then in 1900 they asked for $600,000 and got $424,000, or 70 per cent; in 1901 they got 68 per cent; in 1902 they got 75 per cent; in 1903, 85 per cent of their original estimate, and, if you take the supplementary estimates now before the House they are actually getting more than they asked for the administration of affairs this year. No doubt the requirements of the government are growing on account of the vigorous emigration policy pursued by the present government in inducing people to settle in the North-west Territories. More territory has to be opened up and more improvements are required, and the federal government realizing the needs and requirements of the new territory are providing for it by giving the additional amount now before us? While there may be a difference of opinion as to whether the territories would be better under their own local government, and able to tax themselves, so long as the Dominion government continue to give the guarantees and cash aids for the construction of railways, the North-west Territories have very little ground of complaint, and they will be much better off in future years than if they were under their own self government and had railway contractors after them for guarantees. The Dominion government has given guarantees for the construction of railways. Take the Canadian Northern Railway, $900,000 is the amount guaranteed; the amount supposed to be required for the Grand Trunk Pacific, $120,000,000; and the large subsidy to the Crow’s Nest Pass Railway, which benefits a portion of the North-west Territories—all these cash grants have been given and guaranteed since the North-west Territories have been asking for local autonomy.

It does appear to me that as long as the federal government continue to deal as liberally as they have done with the North-west Territories, where they are placing no debt on themselves for the construction of railways, that they are in a very enviable position as far as finances are concerned. There is no doubt at all that in the very near future they will have provincial autonomy. There is no doubt that in the very near future the Dominion government, in dealing with that matter, will be in a very much better position than they have been in past years, because it is new territory and part of it that was supposed to be worthless except for ranching purposes a few years ago, has now become good wheat land. It was suggested that the North-west Territories should be divided into two provinces; that a portion of the territory should be added to Manitoba, the balance between that and British Columbia forming another province. These things can all be more intelligently dealt with when the country is fairly well settled, as it is going to be in a very few years. Matters have to be adjusted afterwards. People feel that changes have to be made on account of the changed circumstances which will exist after the formation of a province in that portion of the Dominion of Canada. I do not wish to take up time on this matter now, but I just present these views to the House for what they are worth.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—I am sure Mr. Belyea and his fifteen supporters in the legislature will feel deeply indebted to my hon. friend for pointing out the grievous mistake they made in regard to their advances.

Hon. Mr. WATSON—The estimate of Mr. Bulyea and his associates made in their demand on the treasury this year was $1,130,000, and they received a larger amount than they estimated they would require.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—I understood the hon. gentleman to say that a similar letter to this one was written in 1895?

Hon. Mr. WATSON—I did not say that. I said there might have been.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—I should hope not. I should hope there was no Conservative who would claim money upon the principles and for the reasons

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advanced by Mr. Bulyea, and I was somewhat surprised when I understood the hon. gentleman to say that a similar letter had been written in a previous year. Probably a great many things might have been done that we have never discovered, not only in 1895, but since then. This return seems to be incomplete. I do not know that that is a matter that we should call to the attention of parliament, but I should like to see Sir Wilfrid Laurier’s answer to this letter, or the government’s answer. That is omitted in this correspondence. It is highly interesting, I admit. The arguments advanced by the hon. gentleman from Marquette are not at all applicable to the particular case under consideration. They might do very well if they were applied to one of the older provinces, having provincial autonomy. But the territories are, to a certain extent, under the control and management of the Dominion government, and not in the same position as the provinces. It may be true that the North-west Territories have had in the past large grants of money, and in its earlier existence it was charged that the late government appropriated an unnecessary quantity of money for the development of that great country. I think that complaints were made at the time, and the statements made by the hon. gentleman from Wellington not quite correct. The grants were defended by the late government on the ground that the territorial government had no means at that time of raising money for either local or for school purposes until they had powers given to them under the Territorial Act, and for that reason larger amounts were granted to them than would have been under any other circumstances. I desire to point out that when Prince Edward Island and British Columbia were brought into confederation, the requirements of those two portions of the country, though they were numerically much smaller in population than other provinces within the Dominion, would not, if their population had been considered, have received the same considerations and grants that were given to them; and so it is in the North-west. Manitoba and the North-west Territories are growing much more rapidly, and hence the necessity for giving them more money. I am not going to argue with my hon. friend behind me as to the advantages and disadvantages to the local territorial government of sending in immigrants, but we must bear this in mind—

Hon. Mr. TEMPLEMAN—The hon. gentleman does not approve of the statement of his hon. friend that immigrants are no good to the country?

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—No, I do not.

Hon. Mr. PERLEY—I said no benefit to the revenue of the North-west Territories, and I challenge the hon. gentleman to contradict it.

Hon. Mr. TEMPLEMAN—It is quite easily contradicted.

Hon. Mr. PERLEY—I challenge the hon. gentleman to contradict it if he can.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—There is a virtue that characterizes the present government and which characterized them also in the past, that whenever they make an interruption of the kind that has just been made, and they are asked for an explanation or to prove it, they are conveniently silent. Silence is golden, and it would place this House in a better position if they did not interrupt so much particularly when they are unwilling to give explanations. Those who live in the North-west know that no portion of the west was so clamorous for advances of money as the province of Manitoba. They were always complaining. We have heard little complaint from them lately, but formerly, when they required it more than they do now, when they were younger and had not so many people to tax under their autonomy to raise money, my hon. friend from Wellington was one of the most clamorous in opposition in opposing the grants. He was the Joe Hume of the Commons of Canada. I hope, in the future, when the estimates are considered and other appropriations are made, hon. gentlemen opposite will display the same economic spirit they have in the past. If they have sent 100,000 into the North-west Territories this year, and I hope they have, I should be delighted if it was 200,000, does not that establish this important fact that it is necessary to build more bridges, it is necessary to open more concession roads and main roads, and to give facilities to cross these great valleys and gullies,

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to which my hon. friend refers. No one knows better the requirements of a new country like that, although it is supposed to be a flat, prairie country, than the two hon. gentlemen sitting opposite me. I have heard the hon. gentleman—not the one from Killarney, but the hon. gentleman from Marquette, burst forth in stentorian tones his demands for greater amounts than he is now advocating, when he was in the House of Commons. I do not blame him for that.

I know the more one studies this question the more he will be convinced of the absolute necessity of the Dominion being very liberal in their appropriations in assistance of that new country, until they get provincial autonomy. I believe the time has arrived when it would be much better to grant the North-west Territories provincial autonomy, and the power they require to tax the lands that are held by private individuals throughout the country. They do that now, but let them have the power to impose more taxes for other requirements. Let them erect the different portions of their province into municipalities such as we have in Ontario and other portions of the Dominion. Give the municipalities the power to raise the money and they will know better and be more careful how they expend it. I notice that the Premier said in answer to an interrogation in the House of Commons that the time had not yet arrived when they should give the territories provincial autonomy. If my hon. friend will take the trouble to read the declarations and statements made by certain ministers in the other House the lands were to be retained—this was in answer to a demand that lands should be put under the control of the territories and that the territories should be given the benefit of them—that the lands were to be retained to create a fund for the purpose of recouping the general revenue for the advances which might be made for the construction of the railway. That has been published in the newspapers. I think most people have seen it. Well, to charge the North-west Territories with the appropriations made for opening up and building railways through the country, I think is carrying the argument altogether too far. It is neither fair nor equitable towards the territories. The hon. Secretary of State said a few moments ago that there was a sum of $400,000 appropriated in the main estimates for the territories. I have looked through them and I find nothing of the kind.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—I was under that impression.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—I have the main estimates in my hand, and if the hon. gentleman turns to page 13 he will see that we are to vote the North-west Territories $7,000, but that is for the governor of the territories.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—I have not a copy of the estimates. I was speaking from memory. I thought there surely must be something in the main estimates.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—I find also that there is an appropriation of $5,000 for a chief justice. He will find that on page 29 ; he will also find that for the Prince Albert jail there is $7,500, but that is purely Dominion and not territorial expenditure. That consists of salaries, uniforms, maintenance of prisoners, discharge expenses, working expenses, industries, prisoners’ equipment and miscellaneous. Then, on page 37, the hon. gentleman will find that there is an item, but that is for pensions, payable to the mounted police, $2,400. I may not have found them all, but here is an item for the North-west Territories on page 49, the court house and lock-up and police accommodation, Dominion public buildings, renewable improvements and repairs Macleod court house, Red Deer court house and the lock-up, and Yorkton court house and jail, amounting to $32,000. All that expenditure is in the interest of the maintenance of justice, and not a sum over which the territorial government would have any control.

Hon. Mr. WATSON—If the territories had provincial autonomy they would have to pay these expenses themselves.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—Possibly they would, and possibly not. They do not have to pay all those expenses for the administration of justice in the province of Ontario as between the municipality and the government.

Hon. Mr. McMULLEN—The court house and lock-up are contributed by the province.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—I understand that. I am speaking of the administration of justice, and that is a portion

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of it. I am pointing out that these are sums contained in the main estimates for Dominion purposes, the country being under control and government to that extent of the Dominion, and the territorial government is thereby relieved from taxation for that purpose.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—Look at page 68 of the main estimates and you will find a total of $552,000.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—That is quite right. I was coming to that.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—That is more than I mentioned. I mentioned $450,000. I did not know it was so much as that.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—It is less this year, though the country is growing rapidly, than it was last year. I do not know which sum my hon. friend read, but I find for 1902-3 the sum voted was $634,500, and for 1903-4 it is $405,000, nearly $230,000 less.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—It is $550,000.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—What is the hon. gentleman reading from?

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—The estimates of the present year.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—I am looking at the estimates of the present year and reading from the top of page 69.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—It is to be found at the bottom of the page. That is only one vote, and we have had a number of estimates this year.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—The estimates taken for 1902-3, by the figures—and he is reading precisely the same figures that I am—were $634,500 and for this year is $405,000, precisely what I said; but the hon. gentleman will see, if he had allowed me to proceed without interruption, that the appropriation, in the words in italics, ‘the appropriation not required for 1903 is $203,000.’ Now, if we go through the whole estimates, we will find no such sum as that mentioned. What I want to point out again is this: If you turn to these estimates which we have in our hands and the supplementaries to which my hon. friend referred, you will find that the appropriation for different purposes for Manitoba is $121,000, but for the North-west Territories he called attention to the fact that it was $75,000. That is quite correct, but what is it for? It is for carrying on the business of the Dominion. It is not a sum that is appropriated for the purpose of the territorial government. It is for the Prince Albert land and registry office, a new vault in Regina and improvements to the post office. The item for the Regina immigration building is a revote, and the item for the Edmonton jail is another revote of $35,000. Calgary was given two examining warehouses, Prince Albert a post office, Moosejaw public buildings, barracks for permanent corps of the Strathcona Horse. That is what the $75,000 is for. It is not at all placed in the hands of the territorial government. I am not going to discuss that question just now, but when the estimates come up I think they will be well worth considering and comparing with other votes. You will find if you take the province of Nova Scotia—and this indicates to me the probability of the approach of an election—in the main estimates there are no less than 51 items, running up to hundreds of thousands of dollars, and if you will turn to these supplementary estimates, to which my hon. friend has called attention, you will find there are no less than 130 items. I think they have picked out every ditch and cross road in the provinces in order to give them money. I do not suppose that my hon. friend from Cape Breton and others from Nova Scotia will find fault with that. There are about 170 items. Ontario is not quite so bad as that, but it approximates very nearly. If you can appropriate that much money—and it ran up to nearly six or seven hundred thousand dollars for Nova Scotia alone this year—if that is to be the standard of support of the government, they must be happy. If the old provinces are entitled to the amount of money indicated in these estimates to which I have called attention, surely the new, growing territories in the west, that are just budding, if I may use the expression, into manhood, should be most liberally dealt with.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—Hear, hear.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—That is the point I wish to make by referring to

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these other items. I think, upon reflection, the government will take that view of it. I am tolerably sure that those from the west will. The more one knows of the west and studies its requirements, the more convinced he will be of the necessity of not lavish, but liberal grants being made to the territorial government, in order that they may provide roads and bridges to enable the settlers to take their products to the markets. I do not know whether the hon. gentleman, in his reference to the moneys paid for school purposes, referred to the school lands. When Manitoba was created a province and the territories were organized, certain sections in the townships were set apart for school purposes and, as those lands were sold, the money was retained by the Dominion government and the interest thereon paid to the provincial and the territorial governments, and that has constituted a portion of the funds for educational purposes. Parliament committed a great wrong a year or two ago. I remember very well a Bill passing here without any objection from us, for the simple reason that we overlooked it. Thousands and hundreds of thousands of acres of land in Manitoba had been sold on credit, and the unpaid principal was drawing six per cent interest. A Bill was introduced and deliberately carried through parliament reducing the interest to five per cent, and that meant just so much taken from the school fund in the North-west, amounting to thousands and tens of thousands of dollars on the unpaid principal of the enormous area of school lands which have been sold. It was thought equitable at the time, for the reason that a law had been introduced reducing the legal rate of interest to five per cent, and that was made applicable to debts already existing, and included the unpaid price of the school lands. I suppose we are all responsible for the wrong we committed then, but many of these things are rushed through this House, as they are coming now. The most lavish expenditure is laid before us, and hundreds of millions, I might almost say, are being brought down at the very end of the session, when everybody is wearied and can scarcely give the time and attention necessary to properly consider matters of such importance. That is one reason why I say the present government, as well as the late government, have made a mistake; the whole system of governing the country on those questions has been wrong. I desire to put on record my own view, and I believe the view of the country, when they understand the question, that the federal government should be liberal with the North-west, and particularly so when they are sending hundreds of thousands of people into that country. It creates a necessity for more money on the part of the territorial government, which I am sure, after reflection, the government will accede to.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—Hear, hear.

Hon. Mr. ELLIS—The hon. gentleman in calling attention to the estimates for the present year as compared with the estimates for last year, no doubt makes a correct statement so far as it appears in the book, but he has had experience enough to know that the way the comparative statement is made up is this: All the estimates for last year, including the original and the supplementary estimates, are in one column, while in the second column, for this year we have only the original estimate for the present year, the supplementaries not appearing at all. I do not remember the hon. gentleman’s figures, but he says the estimate for this year falls below the estimate for last year, inasmuch as the estimate for last year was about $600,000; but if my hon. friend will refer to the first estimate for last year, he will find it amounted to $425,359, and properly the comparison which the hon. gentleman makes should be made with that and not with the figures on the page he referred to.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—I would refer the hon. gentleman to the actual estimate to which my remarks really applied, and the estimate for the territorial government. The House will remember I made the statement that the estimate for this year was the same as the estimate last year, and hon. gentlemen will see that the estimate is $437,979. Hon. gentlemen will also keep in view the fact that the hon. gentleman is dismissing the estimate chargeable to the territorial government account, as appears on page 68 of the main estimates. The other estimates are chargeable to both accounts.

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Hon. Mr. ELLIS—I am referring entirely to the estimates brought down for the territorial government, in 1903—the 229th item ‘government of the North-west Territories, amount to be voted, $425,359.’ I am referring solely to the comparison which the hon. member from Hastings made. The hon. gentleman’s contention is that we are not voting as much for the territories this year as we voted last year. We cannot tell how much we shall vote until all the estimates are before us.

Hon. Mr. LANDRY—Could we ascertain from the supplementary estimates that are brought in this year if there is an amount which would increase the one the hon. gentleman has given?

Hon. Mr. ELLIS—Of course the hon. gentleman will understand that the blue-book for 1904 will contain the estimates for the year, and they compare with all the amounts granted in the previous year, but to get at the actual amount voted, you have to take in the supplementaries as well.

Hon. Mr. LANDRY—I understand that. but we have actually supplementary estimates to the amount of $10,500,000. In those figures can we find what would complete the appropriation for the North-west Territories?

Hon. Mr. TEMPLEMAN—Would the hon. gentleman look at page 25 of the supplementary estimates for the current year? He will find an amount there of $255,000.

Hon. Mr. ELLIS—I wish to call attention to the amount for education. I do not know how the money may be expended, but I find that last year, from the Auditor General’s report, the amount actually paid over to the government of the North-west Territories for educational purposes, for clerical assistance and printing was $408,000, and in addition to that there was some $7,000 for school houses in unorganized districts. I presume it is in the hands of the territorial government to apportion that amount for education as best it may.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—Not in the unorganized districts.

Hon. Mr. ELLIS—I am referring particularly to the large grant of $408,000, which, according to the Auditor General’s report, was paid over last year. Under all the circumstances it would seem to me they cannot fairly charge the federal government with want of liberality in dealing with the schools, in view of the large amount voted.

The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read a third time and passed.