Document Information

Date: 1903-04-15
By: Canada (Parliament)
Citation: Canada, Senate Debates, 9th Parl, 3rd Sess, 1903 at 57 – 68
Other formats: TBA

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INCREASED SUBSIDIES TO THE NORTH-WEST TERRITORIES

INQUERY

Hon. Mr. PERLEY— Before the Orders of the Day are proceeded with, I desire to ask

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The leader of the government if he has had any communication from the premier of the North-west Territories with respect to an increase of the subsidy this year?

Hon. Mr. SCOTT— Not that I am aware of recently. There has been correspondence passing, I know, between the premier of the North-west Territories and the government on that subject, but I am not able to inform my hon. Friend as to the decision arrived at.

Hon. Mr. PERLEY— I should like to say that on Saturday last I met one of the members of the North-west government, who happened to be a resident of the town in which I love, and I remarked to him the North-west Assembly were to meet to-morrow. He said they were, but that they were going to adjourn immediately. I said ‘why do you meet then?’ He said ‘we have to meet within the year, and the year will be up on Saturday. The reason we have to adjourn is we have not enough money to carry the affairs of the country.’ I noticed last year the government increased the grants to the North-west Territories by $18,000—$1,000 on Government House, $2,000 on registrars and $15,000 for the insane. The other amount, which was for roads and bridges and expenses of government has not been increased any. It is well known that there was a very large increase of population in the North-West Territories last year, and this year the influx promises to be still larger, and roads and bridges and schools have to be provided for these people. The territorial government cannot legislate now, because they expect half a million dollars, but even that would be too small a sum to enable them to construct the roads and bridges which are necessary for the people who went in there last year and are going in there this year. My reason for rising now is that the assembly meets to-morrow and it is a pity to have them adjourn, because they meet at a great expense, and they will certainly have to adjourn, because the commissioner of Agriculture told me it was utterly impossible for them to go on and legislate with the funds they have, what I desire in calling attention to this matter is this; if the government intend to give them any increase of subsidy over and above what they had last year, it would be better to notify them. They could be notified to-morrow for instance, by telegraph, and then they need not adjourn, and they might go on and transact business without loss of time. This is the time of the year the money is needed because the government know that very large numbers of people are going into that country, they have to cross the small swollen streams at this time of the year, and it is almost impossible for them to get across them without bridges. The government of the territories cannot build bridges because they are without the means. It is evident the government have had the matter under consideration, because I see they have made the increases I have mentioned, but nothing is said about the increase for roads and bridges and schools, evidently showing that they do not intend giving any more. If that is so, they should say so plainly. If they do intend to give the territories any more, they should say ‘ in a few days we will provide a grant;’ otherwise the legislative assembly will have to adjourn and will not meet until late in July or August, because the supplementary estimates come down the last of the session nearly, and the assembly cannot adjourn with any definite knowledge as to when they should meet again. I merely call the attention of the government to this condition of things so that they may remedy it, and prevent an adjournment of the assembly or give them some intimation as to how long they should adjourn. Suppose they adjourn for six weeks and the supplementary estimates are not yet voted, they would have to adjourn again until August or September, and that would be too late to do anything this year towards building roads and bridges.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT— The government are fully alive to the situation and fully appreciate the conditions of affairs in the North-west, and that the government there can not be maintained on the narrow basis financially that has existed during the past few years. When I am in a position to give the facts to the house it will be seen, notwithstanding the adjournments, that the government of the North-west have been pretty liberally spending money last year. Far beyond the amount voted by parliament, I cannot speak definitively as to the amount over and above, but it is a very large sum— over a hundred thousand dollars— so the

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question of money has been somewhat anticipated before parliament met; therefore, my hon. friend’s remarks do not apply practically to that feature of the question, as the territorial government have not been without money, although it has not been voted by parliament. Probably within a week, or less than a week, we will know what is the amount of their wants, or what will satisfy them, and I think it will be shown that the government of Canada are treating the North-west on as liberal a basis as the circumstances will justify.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—It is unfortunate that every session of parliament finds practically a repetition of this complaint made as to the inadequacy of the grant allowed to the North-west government. That grant has certainly not been increased in proportion to the very rapid increase in the population of that country. When one takes into consideration that territorially there is a continent practically to be opened up to meet the requirements of the incoming population—streams to be bridged, roads to be built, schools to be erected, and maintained through that vast territory, almost seven or eight hundred miles in length by four or five hundred miles in breadth—and when one takes into consideration that every year there is settlement going northwards, and this session we have practically three applications for three transcontinental systems of railway north of the Canadian Pacific Railway system, one can appreciate the reasons which present themselves to this government why the territorial government should be generously dealt with in the matter of public grants. I refer to three transcontinental systems of railway. The Grand Trunk Pacific is applying for power to build a road some one hundred and fifty miles north of the Saskatchewan river. We find the Trans-Canada making application for powers to build through the Peace river country, and the Canada Northern looking to the government for aid to build along the Saskatchewan valley. Very few who have not been over that vast country can appreciate the wants of the territorial government. The territorial government have been, for some time, suppliants before the federal government, that provincial powers might be given them, that a fixed revenue might be granted so that from year to year they might be in a position to intelligently determine what public works they could carry out for the benefit of that part of the Dominion. If hon. gentlemen will look at the estimates voted by the federal government since 1896 for the construction of public works in the territories, they will find the estimates to be almost nothing. In fact, since the advent of this government to power, no attention has been given to carrying on public works of the character I have mentioned in that country. The late government did expend considerable money in building bridges and in making roads, trails and so on, but when you take into consideration that over 250,000 people are now in the territories, and you ask the territorial government to administer the affairs of that vast country, to construct bridges, to make roads, to carry on a system of education commensurate with the requirements of the varied population in that territory, you can very readily imagine the impossibility of meeting the public wants. I cannot conceive why the federal government does not grant to the territorial government autonomy such as has been prayed for from year to year. It seems to me that would be a solution of the whole question. It is in the interests of Canada that that country should make progress. It is in the interest of the entire Dominion that everything should be done to meet the public requirements in that vast territory, and if the Secretary of State, instead of criticising the expenditure which has already been made—

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—I did not criticise it.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—And saying they have overspent the estimate made at the last session of parliament, if he would with the other members of the government give some consideration to the prayer which they have offered up for years past, that provincial autonomy be given them the same as to other parts of Canada, it would be a happy solution of the whole question. The premier of the territories has yearly to come down and play the part of a suppliant at the feet of the Dominion government, spending invariably from two to three months in Ottawa seeking the paltry pittance which is yearly voted. That applies to this government and applies to the late

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government. Why should a government like our territorial government be placed in the humiliating position in which they have been placed, say for the last decade at least in thus supplicating the government at Ottawa year after year that an adequate amount should be voted to carry out what is in the interests of the public and what is in the interests of the entire Dominion? I hope my hon. friend, instead of looking into the expenditure of the few paltry dollars which have been given, will look into the question of why this government should not grant the wish of the people of the territories, which has been publicly proclaimed—because public sentiment is unanimous upon it—namely, that provincial autonomy should be given to the territories and that a fixed amount should be paid and, as I said before, the problem would be solved.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—The hon. gentleman quite misunderstood my remarks when he says that I spoke in a criticising manner at all. I simply said the wants had increased, as everybody knows, within a year, and the money had been found and it had been spent, although not voted by parliament. I said they had obtained money and that the money of course would be recouped and voted by parliament. I have not criticised the action of the North-west government in anticipating their wants, because I realized they were wants of an imperative character. As to the provincial autonomy, I think it would be very much better, in the interests of the North-west, that they should remain as they are. It would be quite impossible, in the transition which is passing now, to fix the amount which would have to stand under our constitution for a number of years. You cannot tell what the conditions of that country will be. If one hundred thousand go in this year and a hundred thousand next year, it would be idle to predicate the allowance on the past. You could not do it, because you could not tell what would be necessary. I suppose any government that happens to have the control in this country fully appreciates the value and importance of supplying the North-west with all its legitimate demands, and when the facts come to be known, I think it will be recognized that there has not been that necessity for the appeals to which my hon. friend has referred and that they have been treated on a very liberal basis.

THE BARR SETTLEMENT IN THE NORTH-WEST TERRITORIES.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—Before the Orders of the Day are called, may I direct the attention of my hon. friend opposite (Hon. Mr. Scott) to an article which appeared in the Toronto press referring to the Rev. Mr. Barr, the founder of the Barr settlement in the North-west Territories, and I might say in connection with it, that I direct the attention of the government to the fact for the purpose of eliciting some information as to what is being done in the way of making preparation to receive the vast crowds of emigrants going into the country at the present time. The article to which I refer appeared in to-day’s ‘Mail and Empire’ and reads as follows:

Mr. Barr said he will get the usual bonus of $5 a head, which the Canadian government pays for immigrants to agents anywhere in Europe who can send out acceptable men. He gets a commission of about $7 a head from the steamship company, and he reaps some profit from the sale of supplies. These 2,000 people should turn him a profit of considerably over $10,000 after deducting the expenses of organization.

‘I have no doubt of the success,’ added Mr. Barr, ‘this is only the beginning. I had many more who wanted to come. They will arrive later. The movement is not confined to England or the British Isles. I am getting inquiries and am accepting English colonists from the United States, from Egypt, from South Africa, from Australia, from New Zealand, from India, from Ceylon, from China, and from every part of the world where there are Englishmen to be found.’

The further reason I direct the attention of my hon. friend to this item lies in the fact that there seems to be a system by which an unauthorized person may bring large numbers of emigrants into the Dominion of Canada apparently without the knowledge or authority of the Dominion government. This I think is a system that should not be encouraged, if it obtains, as would appear from the article I have just alluded to. I might say, I arrived in Ottawa yesterday from the North-west, and there is a very serious apprehension in the minds of the people of that country that, owing to the unprepared state in which the lands of this particular company lie, there will possibly be very great destitution this next ensuing winter. It is a well known fact that the railway companies are not assuming responsibility for those

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thousands of English emigrants who are landing at present on our shores. It would seem that the government is not assuming any responsibility, but they are being brought here at the instance of private individuals. When you take into consideration that there are in the neighbourhood of three or four thousand English emigrants being transported, or to be transported, a hundred and seventy-five miles beyond the present railway terminus to a colony in the Saskatchewan, in the vicinity of Battleford, where no buildings have been erected and no lands have been broken, and no preparation made for their reception, you can readily appreciate the apprehension which exists in the public mind as to what will be the outcome of practically dumping them at this time of the year or at any other time.

Hon. Mr. FERGUSON—Is the timber cut?

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—There is no timber cut. I understand supplies are being floated down the river from Edmonton. If this be the case, considerable time will be occupied in getting those supplies. In the meantime, the condition of mind in which those men will find themselves, not speaking of the condition of body, will be anything but favourable to the promotion of immigration interests in Great Britain. This company has spent considerable money in promoting our immigration interests in England. The present government is to be commended upon the extraordinary efforts which they have made in that direction, and I might say it is being appreciated to a very large extent by the people of the territories. But I might point out that it is not sufficient to merely advertise the advantages of Canada in Great Britain and elsewhere, if the system is going to end at that particular point. It is vastly more important that a thorough system should be devised, so that when emigrants come to our shores they may be properly looked after, so that the reports which they send to their homes, whether it be on this continent or in Europe, may be of such a favourable character as will induce other emigrants to come to Canada. I understand those three or four thousand Barr emigrants will have to be transported by horses from Saskatoon to the colony which they have selected. I think this is extremely unfortunate.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—Whereabouts are they to be located?

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—Near Battleford. It will be almost impossible for them to reach their destination without special provision being made. I understand the Canadian Pacific Railway have divested themselves of all responsibility in the matter. They carry them to the end of their destination on the railway and dump them. The greatest difficulty prevails at the present time in getting the necessary supplies to live, not for comfort but simply to have their necessities satisfied. It is unfortunate that at the present time the Minister of the Interior is absent in Europe. If destitution should prevail in that colony it will set back the interests of the North-west Territories for a number of years. Considerable distinction may be drawn between those particular emigrants to which I have alluded and the United States emigrants, who are familiar with the conditions of the country and come prepared to meet all the adverse circumstances which may arise in a new country. Consequently our sympathies do not naturally go out to people who are thus prepared to accept and meet all adverse conditions; but there are few emigrants so helpless as the English or European emigrants landing on our shores. He is not familiar with the conditions which obtain in this country. He has been living under fairly comfortable conditions and expects to have all the comforts of civilization, and we very well know that if these are not accorded him he is the very prince of grumblers—and we know what the consequence will be. I have mentioned already that very serious complaints are being sent to the English press on account of the lack of preparation being made for their reception. This settlement, unfortunately, is one of those movements which periodically seize the people of England in the matter of emigration. Emigration in England usually, instead of being conducted on business basis, emanates from benevolent or philanthropic movements and largely devoid of sound business methods; consequently we find the present condition of things obtaining in the colony to which I have alluded. I understand that the government has sent forward considerable canvas to accommodate those people, I understand

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that all the tents available in that western country have been procured. I cannot impress on the government too strongly the necessity of taking up this matter seriously. If it is not taken up seriously and placed in the hands of competent men, and particular attention given to make preparation for the reception of these people, incalculable injury will be done to our interests. I am satisfied the government do not wish to have undone the work they have so well begun, and therefore it would be in the interests of the whole Dominion that this matter should be taken up seriously by the cabinet.

Hon. Mr. WATSON—I am sorry such statements should be made as those we have heard from the hon. gentleman from Calgary on the basis of an interview with Mr. Barr. I never met Mr. Barr until last night, but I am satisfied he never authorized the interview read by the hon. gentleman. He is a shrewd business man, and I do not think he would give any newspaper reporter such an interview as has been read. This matter has been brought up in another place, and unnecessary alarm created as to the accommodation furnished to settlers. The hon. gentleman opposite used to find fault with the government for bringing Galicians and Doukhobors into the country: now he objects to bringing Englishmen into the country.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—No.

Hon. Mr. WATSON—Yes, the hon. gentleman says the most helpless people coming into this country are the English. I have seen in the press that hon. gentlemen in the other chamber have visited the trains passing through, and they report that they never saw a finer class of people coming into the country than those going to Mr. Barr’s settlement. More than that, I understand they are not paupers—

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—I will not permit the hon. gentleman to absolutely falsify and misrepresent what I said. I never said anything of the kind.

Hon. Mr. WATSON—The hon. gentleman said these men are helpless.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—No, I said the English emigrant is helpless in comparison with the American.

Hon. Mr. LANDERKIN—Never.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—If the hon. gentleman had lived on the plains as long as I have, he would not say so. I said nothing to disparage the class of emigrants brought in. Quite the contrary.

Hon. Mr. WATSON—The hon. gentleman has made a speech which could be used by the enemies of this country to stop settlement. Those colonists have transferred two and a half million dollars to this country. With money at their back they can supply themselves in the west. I can tell the hon. gentleman, from information received from the Immigration Department, that there is no lack of accommodation for these settlers. I was told by the deputy minister that they have accommodation in Manitoba and the North-west Territories to-day for some 27,000 people, and they do not expect to be overcrowded. So far as the Barr settlement is concerned, if the hon. gentleman had made inquiry before he spoke he would learn that the government had taken care to provide for these people. They have erected tents every 20 miles from the train to the Barr colony with floors placed in them, and stoves to heat them, and there can be no suffering or lack of accommodation. I am told at Winnipeg there is accommodation for 2,500 that has never been occupied. Of course, a certain class of people go to the hotels and the hotels have been crowded, but for the immigrant who is willing to accept fair accommodation, they have in the drill hall and other places sufficient accommodation for all the people arriving in the Northwest. At Saskatoon there are tents with stoves in them not occupied, ample accommodation for all the people coming in, and I am rather surprised at the hon. gentleman, who wishes to see the North-west settled and colonized, making such statements as he has made to-night, blaming the government for bringing people here, and blaming them for not furnishing accommodation. There never has been better accommodation furnished to immigrants in the history of the government of Canada than there is to-day. The officials employed by the government are active men, as my hon. friend knows well, and I undertake to say there will be no suffering on the part

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of settlers going to the North-west. So far as immigrants are concerned, large numbers are coming in, but we all know they will look after themselves. The Scandinavians and other foreigners coming to this country are well able to look after themselves. If any people require to be looked after, I agree with the hon. gentleman that these English emigrants do. They do not understand our western life, but the government are furnishing them with ample accommodation. Having seen these people, My hon. friend agrees that they are a fine strapping lot of Englishmen, and I venture to say they will take care of themselves—I regret very much, after the efforts made to induce people to come to the North-west, that any gentleman, particularly a representative from the North-west, should rise and make a speech of which much could be made by people wishing to attract our immigrants elsewhere, and used to a very great advantage. It certainly is not a patriotic speech coming from a representative of the North-west.

Hon. Mr. FERGUSON—I shall feel very much surprised indeed if the hon. Secretary of State will endorse the observations which have just been made by the hon. gentleman from Portage la Prairie. Indeed I fully expect that my hon. friend, the Secretary of State, will express the thanks of the government for the very friendly, the timely and reasonable observations which were addressed to the House and especially to the government by the hon. gentleman from Calgary. His observations were couched in the most friendly terms towards the government giving them credit for what they have done with regard to bringing people into the country, and very timely on the point as to what should be done for them and what is due from the government and people of Canada generally towards this very large and important lot of emigrants coming into the country. I was surprised to hear the remarks of the hon. gentleman from Portage la Prairie (Mr. Watson). I am sure he could not have heard any hon. friend from Calgary aright. That hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. Lougheed) was very far from speaking disparagingly of these emigrants, but he voiced what I am sure every hon. gentleman who understands the matter knows, that emigrants from the British Islands are not so experienced in pioneer life as people from Eastern Canada or from the United States, and on all those considerations the hon. gentleman urged for these people the most earnest attention of the government. These immigrants may have millions of money, but they cannot live on that money in the sense of procuring daily bread if they are to be 170 miles from a road and in the heart of a country where it is difficult to secure supplies. My hon. friend from Calgary called the attention of the government to the great importance of this question and pressed them to make every possible provision for the comfort of these people, and to make them satisfied. Before my hon. friend had risen at all, although I live in another part of the country, I had been thinking of this matter very seriously in the very way the hon. gentleman has spoken. This batch of 3,000 immigrants from the old country may be, and probably will be, the forerunners of hundreds of thousands of people—that is, if the first impressions they receive of this country are favourable. If, on the other hand, they find they are neglected—or imagine they are neglected, and find they are placed in a position of difficulty with regard to obtaining supplies and necessaries of life—if they find that attention is not given them which is their due, they will send unfavourable accounts of this country to the people at home, and prevent a great many from coming to our shores. I have felt extremely anxious about this British immigration, because we have heard so much about United States citizens coming into this country. I never regarded the United States immigration into our North-west in any other light than a satisfactory one. I am glad to see them coming. I know they will make good settlers, and when settled in the country, good Canadians; but I should be sorry if those people should come into the country and settle it solidly. I should like to see a good share of the old British stock coming in to be mixed with them, in order that they may be welded into one community. I should be sorry to see the United States immigration so solid that there should not be a fair balance maintained of British subjects coming in with them at the same time, in order that there may not

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be danger of the country becoming Americanized. Therefore, on this account I have regarded with greater interest the flow of British people into our North-west at this time, than under other circumstances, and I am quite sure the hon. Secretary of State will not disregard words which were not offered in a spirit of criticism or fault-finding, but with an earnest desire that the best thing may be done at this moment, not only to settle the country, but to encourage others to come in and fill up our great North-west Territories. In connection with this very question, we have another matter in connection with the inquiry made by my hon. friend from Wolseley (Hon. Mr. Perley) with respect to the provision for the government of the North-west, and I must again endorse what has been said by the hon. gentleman from Calgary with regard to granting provisional autonomy to the North-west Territories. They are seeking for it. It cannot be in the interest of the North-west, or of Canada as a whole, that the government and the people of the territories should be put in the position of having to come here year after year as suppliants to the government to have amounts doled out to them to meet their growing wants. The question should be taken up in a statesmanlike way, and steps taken to grant them the full powers of a province, and means of maintaining law and order there, similar to what has been given to other provinces, in order that the present unsatisfactory state of things may not continue. In view of this immense immigration from the United States and Great Britain, as well as from the older provinces of Canada, it is very important the government should deal immediately with the question of granting provincial autonomy of the territories.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT—When the hon. gentleman from Calgary was addressing the House, I felt he had not in view any of the English immigrants who passed through here the last few days, or he would not have paid them the questionable compliment of supposing they required any looking after. They would disclaim any intention of leaning upon anybody. When, about six months ago, application was made to the Department of the Interior to set aside forty or fifty townships in the Saskatchewan valley, west of Battleford, the department discouraged it, because the policy of this government and of the past government, has been to discourage large bodies of congenial people settling in any one locality as strangers, because it is thought an intermingling is very much better where there is a sprinkling of farmers from Ontario and other parts of the Dominion or from the United States. They understand the situation and conditions of the country and are able to give pointers to strangers. A large body coming in and being left to themselves, have not the same opportunity of gaining a knowledge of the country and the best methods of carrying on agriculture. However, the answer was that they desired to have a colony that would be strictly an English colony, and they were not prepared to take up the land unless it was reserved for them exclusively. Under the circumstances, they were allowed to take up a very large percentage, seventy-five to ninety per cent of all the land in those townships. From the interviews I had read that have taken place between members of the party and representatives of the press that waited on them at St. John, N.B., Montreal and other points, they fully realize the conditions to be met with in the North-west. They were quite familiar with the fact that they will be dumped at Saskatoon by the railway, that they have one hundred and fifty miles to trek, and they had sent in advance to obtain horses and wagons, all that could be obtained, many months ago. They have made arrangements for temporary fitting up of buildings. They knew there were no houses in that country. They knew they had to live under canvas for six or seven months, and were quite prepared to accept the conditions. They liked the novelty of it, and did not ask for sympathy from anybody. There were among them men with considerable amounts of money, who were prepared to lend money on the land taken up by poorer settlers to enable them to put up buildings. There were all classes among them, lawyers, doctors, clergymen, farmers, labourers, men with two and three hundred pounds to start as independent farmers and their plan is to make a perfect settlement. They had planned it out before they left England. They had maps of the country and were familiar with every condition they were

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likely to encounter. Some of them had made arrangements to hire out with Canadian farmers for a year. Others had abundance of money to live on for a year, without doing anything, before deciding whether to take up farming or engage in some other business or occupation. No more independent men ever came to this country than the 1,900 odd men brought by Mr. Barr. It has been found that not only from England, but from other parts of the world, colonies of that kind are being started. The government cannot interfere with them. We cannot stipulate with them in advance. It is very well known that in the United States syndicates have been formed who have bought up land at various points, and they have been our very best immigration agents. They have arranged with forty, fifty or one hundred farmers to buy land for them and settle them. They purchase at three or four dollars an acre and sell on time at seven or eight dollars an acre. We cannot interfere with that. We cannot stop them from coming into the country. The government does all that is possible to meet the emergency and to make provision for it. It is an exceedingly difficult thing to do. Thirty or forty thousand people coming into a new country, where there are no houses existing for miles and miles of prairie—a country without any habitation—people, recognizing that, coming early in the year make their arrangements to rough it for a time, and they do not require the sympathy or the pity of anybody. Even those who have come in under very much more adverse conditions—the Galicians and others, seem to have got on without any marked suffering. They hired out on railways and other works in that country, and in that way managed to live a very much pleasanter and more successful life than they had in their own country. I do not think my hon. friend need be at all alarmed that anything will be neglected by the government. All the tents available here by the Militia Department were sent to the North-west, and the department has to purchase a complete new set of tents for the camps, which will be coming in a few months from now. With every train of immigrants leaving St. John there is an agent in charge, deputed by the government to see that the people are properly looked after at the various points. A man is appointed at Ottawa to go through the trains and ask people whether they have any complaints, whether the arrangements are satisfactory or whether they have all the information or assistance they require, so that at every point provision is made to anticipate their wants if possible.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—I owe an explanation to my hon. friend from Marquette. In saying this, I did not intend in any way to disparage my hon. friend’s interests in the land company of which he is a director, adjoining the Barr settlement in the valley of the Saskatchewan. I find my hon. friend is advertised as one of the directors of the Ontario and Saskatchewan Land Corporation, Limited, in which he states:

Our land immediately adjoins the Barr settlement of British settlers and also Dr. Adams colony of Nestorians, and the placing of over 20,000 settlers by these organizations in this district within the next year practically assures a rapid increase in the value of our lands.

I would suggest to my hon. friend he should look after a proper reception being given the 20,000 settlers referred to.

Hon. Mr. WATSON—I am evidently better informed as to conditions in the Saskatchewan country than my hon. friend. The Ontario and Saskatchewan Company, like the Englishmen, are able to look after themselves.

Hon. Mr. YOUNG—Had it not been for the last remarks of the hon. gentleman from Calgary I would not have detained this House in this very irregular debate, but my hon. friend thought he would have an opportunity of a fling at the hon. gentleman from Portage la Prairie (Hon. Mr. Watson), for he has been digging among the papers for the last half hour to find an advertisement of the Ontario and Saskatchewan Land Company. My hon. friend from Calgary feels sore because he made one of those breaks which possibly he will have in after life to face over and over again, because we never can tell in the western country when we may happen to rub up against those very men he criticises as helpless men, but who have settled other parts of this world and have made their mark with no reason to condemn them. We have no reason to condemn them untried, and say that they are useless. I do not think that is British fair play to any settler, or class of settlers,

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and it does not let my hon. friend down very much, when he tries to insinuate that the patriotic statement and correct statement made by the hon. gentleman from Portage la Prairie, is influenced by the fact that he has that much faith and confidence in the west that he has invested his money in it. That is no answer. I went up to that country years ago, and did not have any government agent dancing attendance upon me, and I had to do as this Barr colony has to do. I did not expect that they would be waiting for me with a feather bed. I had to take care of myself, and I have not the least doubt these people will be able to do the same, but I am informed by the immigration officers in the west that they have anticipated the arrival of these people and they have made all reasonable arrangements to make them comfortable. What more can we expect. I am told they have tents pitched at every twenty miles of the route, and stoves provided. When they march twenty miles with their teams they will have a comfortable place to go into at night and the weather up there is summer weather, practically mild. I do not anticipate that they should have any sufferings worth speaking of any more than you would naturally expect in a new country, as between here and there every attention is being shown them by officials. At every stage of the road they have some one to advise them, and I am informed that after they get on their land men are provided again to advise them what is best to do under the circumstances, and give them that knowledge that my hon. friend from Calgary deplores that they lack, and I have no doubt they would take advantage of the advice and instruction which would be given them by trained men who would have that experience which they are supposed to have. I understand that there are some two thousand five hundred who are going in untried in one settlement. I only hope—and my hon. friend from Calgary should hope the same—that they will make a success of it, and if they do not make a success and grumble—I understand that it is the privilege of an Englishman to grumble—it is not the fault of the country.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—It is part of their nature.

Hon. Mr. YOUNG—One would think that our western portion of Canada would seem to be every year on trial, but we have got past that stage, and we want no better evidence of it than the fact that our shrewd United States cousins are going in there by the hundreds and occupying the land, and those who have been in there for a couple of years are better pleased than when they first went in, and are writing to their friends to this effect. So that if a portion of the Barr colony are not successful, we cannot condemn the country, because we are beyond the experimental stage. Confidence is established in the fertility of the soil and its ability to produce large crops and repay the husbandman very well for his labours, and I think this irregular discussion which has occurred here to-night would have been far better if brought up on a regular motion when all the information from the department would have been furnished by the hon. Secretary of State and the hon. gentleman from British Columbia (Hon. Mr. Templeman). But it is another example of our drifting manner of doing business when our Speaker has not the same power as the Speaker of the House of Commons.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—It seems to me this discussion is altogether irrelevant, so far as the object that the member for Calgary had in view. I am quite convinced the country will thank him for having brought before the government this matter and obtained the information that has been given by the hon. Secretary of State. I understood that he simply wished to obtain information for that portion of the inhabitants of the country who take an interest in immigration, and for those people who dabble in newspaper writing, and to get an explanation from the Secretary of State on behalf of the government as to what they were really doing as a government to make these people comfortable as far as practicable when they arrived here. I never anticipated that these emigrants were to suffer for want of food, but I feared that the accommodation which might be provided for people coming from the old country, particularly England, Ireland and Scotland, in the way of being housed would be inadequate, and the

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objection which the hon. gentleman from Calgary had in view was to secure the information which has been given by the Secretary of State, which must be satisfactory to every one who listened to him, as to what the government had done and were doing to make the people comfortable and accommodate them when they arrived in the country. A play has been made upon the word ‘helpless,’ used by the hon. gentleman from Calgary (Hon. Mr. Lougheed), which was not altogether irrelevant, but was altogether improper and, worse than that, a misrepresentation of what the hon. gentleman said. I venture the assertion that no man in this House who knows anything about emigrants coming to this country will dare to controvert the statement he made, if they have any regard for the truth. He said emigrants coming from the old country, and particularly from England, were, when placed alongside of Canadians or United States people who come into this country, knowing the habits and wants and peculiarities of the country, and what is necessary in all new settlements, would be comparatively helpless. I repeat that statement. I have seen scores of immigrants coming from the old country into our own section of Ontario, and I know exactly what they are. They are intelligent. I quite agree with the hon. gentleman opposite when he said Englishmen could take care of themselves. I am of the opinion that they can and have done so. That does not do away with the fact that an Englishman coming to this country, without knowing its climate and peculiarities, is not as well fitted for the first year or two to accommodate himself to the peculiar circumstances as one of ourselves.

Hon. Mr. LANDERKIN—The hon. gentleman made a comparison of a man coming from England and a citizen of the United States.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—Does the hon. gentleman pretend to say, that a man who is born in the United States and has been living in the North-west from his childhood up, does not know as much about the peculiarities of the North-west as if he had been born in Canada ?

Hon. Mr. LANDERKIN—Does the hon. gentleman wish me to answer his question ?

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—He may answer when I am through.

Hon. Mr. LANDERKIN—I will answer the hon. gentleman now.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—Very well.

Hon. Mr. LANDERKIN—The hon. gentleman from Calgary, when he made his statement, spoke of the helplessness of Englishmen in comparison with people from the United States.

Hon. Mr. MACDONALD (B.C.)—Quite true.

Hon. Mr. LANDERKIN—Take the Englishman and place him where you will, he is equal to the immigrant from the United States and superior to the immigrant from any other nation in the world.

Hon. Mr. LOUGHEED—I agree with the general statement, but not in at once succeeding in the capacity of a settler on the plains of the North-west.

Hon. Mr. LANDERKIN—On every plain they have shown their valour and they are able to do it still.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—The superlative loyalty of the hon. gentleman is somewhat unbounded and somewhat out of keeping with his character, if I have any recollection of the hon. gentleman’s past history in another part of this building where I had the honour of sitting with him a long time.

Hon. Mr. LANDERKIN—I have some recollection of sitting with the hon. gentleman there.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—I quite agree as to the character of the two races and I go further; notwithstanding the fact of his high opinion of the Englishman I pretend to say, though an Englishman myself—

Hon. Mr. LANDERKIN—I except you.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—An Englishman in this country who has to buffet for his livelihood, is not superior to an American, nor is he equal to him, when you first set him down in the North-west to get his living. I think the hon. gentleman from Marquette (Hon. Mr. Watson) totally misunderstood the remark of the hon.

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gentleman from Calgary and the object he had in view.

Hon. Mr. WATSON—I accept his apology.

Hon. Sir MACKENZIE BOWELL—The hon. gentleman was long enough in the government in the North-west to understand the question, but he has tact enough to draw a herring across the trail to lead you off in another direction, and consequently he made that speech in favour of immigration. Every one agrees with him on that point, but in his anxious desire to defend the government he steps into the breach before the hon. minister had an opportunity of making the explanation which the hon. gentleman from Calgary desired to obtain, he went beyond the point and beyond the subject which was brought under the notice of the House. I repeat, not only will the hon. gentleman from Calgary be gratified, but I think the Secretary of State will thank him for bringing up the matter, and when his remarks are read by the public it will do away with a great deal of that fear that I know exists, created by the newspaper stories that have been sent about, and they will come to the conclusion that the government has done all that it could under the circumstances. My hon. friend congratulated the government on what they had done towards increasing the immigration into this country, and I, speaking for myself and I think every member of this House, am more than gratified to know that the tendency of immigration at the present time is from the mother country rather than from Russia or any other portion of the world. I am delighted to see the Englishman, Irishman and Scotchman pursuing the course they are, and I hope it will be continued and that all the aid that can possibly be given to these people will be given and that the government will continue their present policy. If they do, no one will object to the expenditure of a few thousand dollars in order to accomplish the great object we have in view, to populate that section of the country and make it one of the brightest parts of the Dominion. I care not whether the hon. gentleman from Marquette makes money out of it or not, that is not the object we have in view. Let the system go on, and as long as it is continued it will benefit the country, but there is no burking the question that Englishmen are proverbial grumblers. They kick and grumble and pay, and if they do not do that they would not be Englishmen. But nothing did so much to prevent immigration from England, Ireland and Scotland as the letters sent some years ago during the drouth and when the country was not so prosperous as it is now, when Englishmen writing home depicted the state in which they found themselves. It did more to stop immigration than anything else possibly could. We do not want that repeated. We want the government to do what the Secretary of State says they have done, and that is, to do everything possible in order to provide these people with houses in which to live or with tents for the present, and if they do that, the country will be satisfied.

Mr. SPEAKER—I think it is my duty to call attention to the fact that there is nothing before the House.