Document Information

Date: 1980-10-23
By: Canada (Parliament)
Citation: Canada, House of Commons Debates, 32nd Parl, 1st Sess, 1980 at 3976-3979.
Other formats: Click here to view the original document (PDF).

COMMONS DEBATES — October 23, 1980

THE CONSTITUTION

MOTION THAT DEBATE BE NOT FURTHER ADJOURNED

[Page 3976]

[Translation]

Hon. Yvon Pinard (President of the Privy Council):

Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Communications (Mr. Fox):

That debate on the motion in the name of the Minister of Justice(government orders, government business, No. 18) regarding special Joint Committee consider a proposed resolution to address Her Majesty the Queen—

[Page 3977]

[English]

Mr. Baker (Nepean-Carleton): I rise on a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker: The hon. member for Nepean-Carleton.

Mr. Baker (Nepean-Carleton): Madam Speaker, you called “orders of the day”. Rule 33 reads in this way:

Immediately before the order of the day-

You have called it and that is the beginning of the process on the order of the day and it is finished for the day. You have called it, and from then on any motion under Standing Order 33 is out of order. Because it says:

Immediately before the order of the day-

You called for motions and he missed it.

Madam Speaker: I was taking time to look at the reference, but quite clearly there is no problem in the proceedings. I called the orders of the day, which is exact. Before the Clerk read the order of the day, the minister was on his feet seeking the floor.

Some hon. Members: Oh!

Madam Speaker: I recognized the minister—

Mr. Clark: René Beaudoin!

An hon. Member: He is challenging the Chair!

Madam Speaker:—and he was about to read his motion.

[Translation]

Mr. Pinard: Madam Speaker, I was about to finish reading the motion which I should like to resume where I left off when I was interrupted:

—respecting the Constitution of Canada, and any amendment or subamendment thereto, shall not be further adjourned.

I have given the text of motion to the Clerk of the House.

[English]

Mr. Baker (Nepean-Carleton): Madam Speaker, I want to make it quite clear what had happened. You called motions and you called orders of the day. You are the presiding officer in this House, not the Clerk.

Mr. Clark: That is right.

Some hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr. Baker (Nepean-Carleton): And I mean no disrespect to the Clerk when I say that. Standing Order 33, because it mitigates against the right of members to speak for as long as they wish to speak, is a rule of this House which must be strictly interpreted in favour of the right of members to speak.

Some hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr. Baker (Nepean-Carleton): If there is any doubt about that, Madam Speaker, then I would suggest that perhaps your Honour should take advice with respect to it. Also, I say with respect—

Mr. Fox: Sounds like the Supreme Court.

Mr. Baker (Nepean-Carleton): The hon. member says it sounds like the Supreme Court. This is the Supreme Court.

Some hon. Members: Right on!

Some hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr. Baker (Nepean-Carleton): And in case it has escaped the Secretary of State and Minister of Communications, the Speaker is a judicial officer in that court—the judicial officer in that court.

My argument is this, Madam Speaker. The government has every right to move a motion if it wishes to do so, however tasteless and however wrong in terms of Parliament that might be. It can move that whenever it wants to, except that under the rules of the House they have to move it at the right time.

You had called orders of the day, Madam Speaker. The record can be checked. The Clerk is silent in the House; your Honour presides. Then my friend, the government House leader, rose to put his motion. I say, Madam Speaker, that he was out of time and that that motion is not now receivable. It was not receivable when he put it.

Mr. Nielsen: You can’t weasel out of it.

Mr. Baker (Nepean-Carleton): You cannot back up the proceedings of this House and date them back and say that something happened that never happened before.

Some hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr. Baker (Nepean-Carleton): There is at least one former Speaker in this House of Commons, and if there was ever a time in the life of this Parliament when the Speaker of this House should take advice, it is now. I say that because I have a great respect for the institution of the Chair and also for these rules. I think you know that, Madam Speaker.

Therefore, before you make a ruling with respect to this matter-because there is no appeal from your ruling—you should look at and listen to the video tapes of the proceedings and look at the blues. If necessary, we are prepared to suspend the proceedings in this House for as long as it will take for you to make the decision. This is a very important ruling that you are about to make, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Knowles: Madam Speaker, I wish to say a word with respect to the point of order which has been raised by the hon. member for Nepean-Carleton (Mr. Baker). May I be permitted to say, so that it will be very clear, that my colleagues and I are opposed to the introduction of the closure motion. We shall be voting against it, and I shall have something to say about the whole practice of closure if I get the floor later today.

[Page 3978]

However, Madam Speaker, I think that when a member rises to take part in a point of order debate, he should not twist the rules or even their wording, as did the hon. member for Nepean-Carleton, and he should not try to put the Chair in an impossible position. The hon. member for Nepean-Carleton, and he would like both the video tape and the blues checked, read the standing order as though it said “immediately before the orders of the day are called”.

That is not what Standing Order 33 says. It says:

Immediately before the order of the day for resuming an adjourned debate is called-

Madam Speaker, you did not call an order of the day, but “orders of the day”.

Mr. Nielsen: Come on!

Some hon. Members: Oh, oh!

Mr. Knowles: Just a minute. The President of the Privy Council got up before anyone called order No. 18 or before anything has been called.

Mr. Clark: There goes your reputation, Stanley.

Mr. Nielsen: That completes the process.

Mr. Knowles: It is clear, as long as the motion is put before the order of the day for resuming an adjourned debate, that it is in order. I resent the bringing in of the motion and I am sorry that we are having this kind of a day, but I do not think that the Speaker should be put in the impossible position which has been created by the hon. member for Nepean-Carleton misquoting the rule.

Mr. McCain: Madam Speaker, in support of the hon. member for Nepcan-Carleton (Mr. Baker) and because of my position as the one who would rise next to participate in the debate, I was watching every muscle and movement of the gentleman who would present that motion. Because if he did not make that move and put the motion, it was then my turn to speak. I was rising in my seat to speak on orders of the day before he twitched a muscle in his seat.

Madam Speaker: I thank hon. members for their interventions. I thank the hon. member for Nepean-Carleton (Mr. Baker) when he says that he has a lot of respect for this House and particularly for the Chair. I, too, have a lot of respect for what the hon. members have to say. One can imagine that I had tried to foresee any points of procedure that might be brought up at this particular time. Therefore, I was also watching every possible muscle of every possible member in this House.

Some hon. Members: Oh, oh!

Madam Speaker: I called the orders of the day. The order of the day to be discussed today had not yet been chosen, precisely because the Clerk had not risen to announce that particular order of the day. Before that happened, the minister—and I was watching very closely-chose to propose his motion.

Because I have such respect for what the hon. member for Nepean-Carleton has to say, I will interrupt Proceedings for a few minutes in order to consult with the Table to make sure that my decision today will be fair and, particularly, according to our rules.

Mr. Baker (Nepean-Carleton): Madam Speaker, I think that is quite appropriate. I hope you understand, and I want you to understand, that that question is advanced-

Some hon. Members: Oh, oh!

Mr. Rae: You’re oozing, Walter.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. It is very difficult for the Chair to deal with difficult points of procedure, especially if there is so much noise in the House that the Chair cannot hear.

Mr. Baker (Nepean-Carleton): Madam Speaker, I just want to say that I appreciate the consideration that you are giving to the point of order.

[Editor’s Note: At this point the sitting was suspended for approximately two minutes]

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Members will realize that there are several orders of the day and that is why I call “orders of the day”. I cannot know which order of the day Will be called until the Clerk announces that order of the day. Therefore, I cannot recognize a speaker to speak on that order of the day before it is announced.

What happened is that the President of the Privy Council (Mr. Pinard) got up before the “order” of the day, not the “orders” of the day, was announced. Therefore, he was acting quite in conformity with Standing Order 33, which reads:

Immediately before the order of the day—

Therefore, the minister is quite in order and his motion must be put to the House.

[Translation]

Hon. Yvon Pinard (President of the Privy Council) moved: That debate on the motion in the name of the Minister of Justice (government orders, government business, No. 18) regarding a special joint committee to consider a proposed resolution to address Her Majesty the Queen respecting the Constitution of Canada, and any amendment or subamendment thereto, shall not be further adjourned.

Madam Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Some hon. Members: Yea.

Madam Speaker: All those against the motion will please say nay.

Some hon. Members: Nay.

Madam Speaker: In my opinion, the yeas have it.

[Page 3979]

And more than five members having risen:

Madam Speaker: Call in the members.

[English]

The House divided on the motion (Mr, Pinard), which was agreed to on the following division:

(Division No. 16)

YEAS

Messrs.

Appelloni
(Mrs.)
Axworthy
Bachand
Baker
(Gander-Twillingate)
Beauchamp-Niquet
(Mrs.)
Blais
Bloomfield
Bockstael
Bossy
Breau
Bujold
Bussières
Caccia
Campbell
(Miss)
(South West Nova)
Campbell
(LaSalle)
Chénier
Chrétien
Collenette
Corbin
Corriveau
Cosgrove
Côté (Mrs.)
Cousineau
Cullen
Cyr
Daudlin
Dawson
De Bané
de Corneille
Demers
Desmarais
Dingwall
Dion
(Portneuf)
Dionne
(Chicoutimi)
Dionne
(Northumberland- Miramichi)
Dubois
Duclos
Dupont
Dupras
Duquet
Erola (Mrs.)
Ethier
Evans
Ferguson
Fisher
Fleming
Flis
Foster
Fox
Frith
Garant
Gauthier
Gendron
Gimaiel
Gingras
Gourd
Gray
Guilbault
Harquail
Henderson
Herbert
Hervieux-Payette
(Mrs.)
Hopkins
Hudecki
Irwin
Isabelle
Johnston
Joyal
Kaplan
Kelly
Killens (Mrs.)
Lachance
Lajoie
Lamontagne
Landers
Lang
Laniel
Lapierre
Lapointe
(Charlevoix)
Lapointe
(Beauce)
LeBlanc
Leduc
Loiselle
Lonsdale
Lumley
MacBain
MacEachen
MacGuigan
Mackasey
MacLaren
MacLellan
Maltais
Marceau
Massé
Masters
McCauley
McRae
Munro
(Hamilton East)
Nicholson
(Miss)
Olivier
Ostiguy
Ouellet
Parent
Pelletier
Penner
Pepin
Peterson
Pinard
Prud’homme
Regan
Reid
(Kenora-Rainy River)
Roberts
Robinson
(Etobicoke-Lakeshore)
Rompkey
Rossi
Roy
Savard
Schroder
Simmons
Smith
Stollery
Tardif
Tessier
Tobin
Tousignant
Trudeau
Turner
Veillette
Watson
Weatherhead
Whelan
Yanakis—132

NAYS

Messrs.

Althouse
Baker
(Nepean-Carleton)
Beatty
Benjamin
Blenkarn
Bosley
Bradley
Broadbent
Cardiff
Carney (Miss)
Clark
(Yellowhead)
Clarke
(Vancouver Quadra)
Coates
Cook
Cooper
Cossitt
Crombie
Crosbie
(St. John’s West)
Crouse
Dantzer
Darling
Deans
de Jong
Dick
Dinsdale
Domm
Ellis
Elzinga
Epp
Fennell
Fretz
Friesen
Fulton
Gamble
Gass
Gilchrist
Greenaway
Gustafson
Halliday
Hamilton
(Qu’Appelle-Moose Mountain)
Hamilton
(Swift Current-Maple Creek)
Hargrave
Hawkes
Hees
Hnatyshyn
Hovdebo
Howie
Jarvis
Jelinek
Jewett (Miss)
Keeper
Kempling
Kilgour
King
Knowles
Kushner
Lambert
La Salle
Lewis
MacKay
Malone
Manly
Mazankowski
McCain
McCuish
McDermid
McGrath
McKenzie
McKinnon
McKnight
McLean
McMillan
Miller
Mitchell
(Mrs.)
Mitges
Munro
(Esquimalt-Saanich)
Murta
Neil
Nickerson
Nielsen
Nowlan
Nystrom
Oberle
Ogle
Orlikow
Patterson
Rae
Riis
Robinson
(Burnaby)
Roche
Rose
Sargeant
Schellenberger
Scott
(Hamilton-Wentworth)
Scott
(Victoria-Haliburton)
Shields
Siddon
Skelly
Speyer
Stewart
Taylor
Thacker
Thomson
Towers
Vankoughnet
Waddell
Wenman
Wilson
Wright
Young
Yurko—112.

Madame Speaker: I declare the motion carried.