Document Information

Date: 1864-06-23
By: Montreal Gazette
Citation: “Legislative Assembly”, Montreal Gazette (27 June, 1864)
Other formats: TBA

PROVINCIAL PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

[Continued from our last.]

WEDNESDAY, June 22d, 1864.

DEBATE ON THE MINISTERIAL EXPLANATIONS.

After the recess–

Hon. Mr. DORION went on to comment on the Ministerial explanations. He believed the hon. member for South Oxford, Mr. Brown; was perfectly sincere in the action he had taken; but he believed, at the same time, that the hon. gentleman was wrong. The hon. gentleman then went on to discuss the federation scheme to which he was understood to declare that he was opposed in any shape.

Hon. Mr. HOLTON trusted that no public assurance was required by the hon. member for South Oxford that the course he had taken did not interrupt private and friendly relations between them. There was as little difference of opinion between himself and the member for South Oxford on the majority of questions that divided public opinion, as between any two men in the country. That hon. gentleman had treated him with the utmost candor throughout the negotiations, and had, no doubt, acted in this matter strictly in accordance with his idea of public duty. The hon. gentleman then proceeded to discuss, at considerable length, the federal scheme, as proposed by the Government, and expressed his serious doubt whether the hon. member for South Oxford [Mr. Brown] would succeed in the object he had undertaken.

Hon. Mr. GALT complimented the hon. member, for South Oxford [Mr. Brown] on his welltimed and patriotic speech. The country at large would appreciate the disinterested motive of that hon. gentleman in burying the recollection of the past, for the purpose of attaining an object for the general welfare. He [Mr. Galt] would say that if the details of the proposed measure were not such as he [Mr. Galt] could approve, then he would consider himself free to take such a course as the hon. member for South Oxford suggested. The union which had taken placed was based on the most frank and honest foundation; and [Mr. Galt] was confident that a remedy for existing difficulties would be found which would be acceptable both to Upper Canada and Lower Canada and which would meet the just demands of both. A union of the kind should not bring a blush to the cheeks of any hon. gentleman. It was his [Mr. Galt’s] aim to endeavor, if possible, to bring about the confederation of the Provinces, and he held that hon. members should look forward to the time when this country would take its place among the nations of the world. It should be our object, in so far as possible, to strengthen and draw closer the bonds between this Province and the other British North American Provinces. And with regard to the difficulties between both sections of this country, it was certainly time that we should not disguise from ourselves that there must necessarily be some solution of these difficulties. It was not the defence of the hon. member for South Oxford alone–it was his [Mr. Galt’s] defence, and the defence of hon. gentlemen who sat beside him, that it was full time that the leaders of the great parties in this country should come together, and work earnestly and honestly to find a solution of this difficulty. [Hear, hear, and cheers.]

Mr. A. MACKENZIE was understood to say that he was not opposed to a general confederation of the Provinces: but he did not think there was any great urgency for it at the present moment. He was in favor of accepting the minor project of applying the system to Canada alone, at first. But, acknowledging the hon. member for South Oxford (Mr. Brown) as his leader, he felt that the position of that hon. gentleman and his colleagues was a sufficient guarantee; and he therefore cheerfully accepted the responsibility of advising that hon. gentleman to persist in the course he had taken.

Hon. Mr. CAMERON [in a long and eloquent speech] contended that it would require something more than he had heard from hon. gentlemen to convince him that such a coalition as the present was necessary in order to carry out a confederation of the British Provinces. He would give every aid and assistance in his power to any good scheme a coalition government might present, with the view of settling this important question. He was not, however, in favor of a coalition Government. [Hear, hear.]

Mr. MORRIS argued at some length and with great ability, in favor of a confederation of the Provinces: and defended the course which had been pursued by the leaders on both sides.

Mr. JONES (North Leeds) opposed the confederation scheme. He held that we should not give up the glorious transcript of the British constitution which we possessed, in order to split up the country into a number of small municipalities or principalities. The experience of history was against such a project; and he for one was opposed to it, inasmuch as he wished to see British power in this country maintained and upheld.

Mr. McKELLAR was not in favor of coalitions as a rule; but he held that if ever a coalition was justified, under any circumstances, it was in the present case. If the scheme proposed for a settlement of our difficulties was not found to be a good one when it came down, then we need not support it.

Hon. Mr. HUNTINGTON taunted the Lower Canadian Conservatives on the position in which they now stood—on having, so to speak, bowed down before the hon. gentleman who had either to been held up as the bete noire of Lower Canada. It was indeed a proud day for the hon. member for South Oxford to find that hon. gentlemen who, year after year, had bitterly opposed him, and had bounded from one end of the country to the other those who were suspected of having any tendency towards his views, now acknowledging that the whole of their past course was one great error.

Hon. Mr. MOWAT said he felt convinced from what had been said by the hon. member for South Oxford (Mr. Brown) that hon. gentlemen opposite were sincere in their desire to grapple with the constitutional difficulty; and he had great hopes that the new Cabinet would succeed in bringing about a settlement which would be satisfactory to Upper Canada and satisfactory to Lower Canada; and which would be equally just to both. (Hear, hear.) Parties were valuable indeed for the working of our constitutional purposes; but we should take care that they be not perverted to evil; and that they be not allowed to stand in the way of good. He confessed to something akin to a hatred of coalitions, and he held that it was necessary for public men to avoid even the semblance of doing wrong; but in thus avoiding that which had even the appearance of being bad, we should take care not to do wrong. And, as a coalition under ordinary circumstances was anything but desirable, so in extraordinary and exceptional cases it became necessary and desirable. This was not a simple question. It was a grave, a serious, a complicated question. The struggle for a remedy of our sectional difficulties had lasted for ten years, and had, as yet, been unsuccessful. The hon. gentleman proceeded to argue from these premises that the present coalition was necessary; and that we should congratulate ourselves on being so near the attainment of a great object.

Mr. SCATCHERD was understood to express his opposition to the coalition and confederation schemes. When the measure for the settlement of existing difficulties came down, he would be prepared to discuss it on its merits. In other respects, he would oppose the reconstructed Government as he had opposed the last.

Mr. COWAN was understood to declare that he considered the coalition unnecessary. This discussion on the matter then dropped.

THE ESSEX CASE.

On the order being called for, James Eugene Maguire, the Deputy Returning Officer for the Township of Anderdon, and William Kelly, Poll Clerk for the said Township, at the last election of the County of Essex, to appear at the bar to answer for their conduct at said election— Hon. J. A. MACDONALD moved that the said order be discharged. Carried. The House then, at half-past twelve o’clock, adjourned, on motion of Hon. J. A. MACDONALD.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Wednesday, 22nd June, 1864.

When the House opened at half-past three o’clock—

Hon. Mr. HAMILTON (Kingston), rose and said that he had been requested a few minutes previous to the meeting by the Hon. Premier to state to the House that the negotiations between the Government and the Hon. Mr. Brown had not yet been completed, but that it was expected that they would be concluded by four o’clock. He asked the House to adjourn until that hour.

MINISTERIAL EXPLANATIONS.

The SPEAKER resumed the Chair at four o’clock.

Hon. SIR E. P. TACHÉ rose and said he was now prepared to state to the House in detail the negotiations which had taken place between certain members of the Government and a leading member of the Opposition, and which had continued until to-day. These negotiations had been reduced to writing, had been seen, revised and approved by the several parties to them, so that there could be no misunderstanding in their recital. The document would speak for itself. He would read it in French and his colleague (Hon. Mr. Campbell,) would afterwards do so in English. (The hon. member then read the “Ministerial Explanations,” which were read in the Lower House by the Hon. Attorney General West.

After finishing the reading of the documents the hon. member said the House would have understood that there was to be a reconstruction after the adjournment. The Government would then be a Coalition Government, but not in the ordinary sense of the term for, the coalition was formed for a very peculiar, definite and important object, viz: to arrange the difficulties arising from the present representation of the people in Parliament. Hon. members all knew how the country had been agitated on this subject, how ill-feeling had been evoked and even, menaces used by one section towards the other one standing in a defensive attitude. Such a state of things could not last long without danger, and it was known how difficulties of this kind had culminated elsewhere. The example of the United States, where sectional difficulties had led to a fratricidal and most bloody war, ought to be a warning to all who desired the welfare of the country, no matter of what race or creed, to see if means could not be found to agree upon some plan which would set their agitations at rest. By the negociations he had made known to the House an understanding had been arrived at, which would at least procure the country a respite, if it did nothing else: The parties late in hostility had met together, and would meet to devise the means of agreement, and if they succeeded, as he trusted they would, he thought they would have deserved well. He thought hon. members would all be disposed to respond to the effort with the desire of securing the benefits intended thereby. He would not say any more at present, but would reserve the right to reply if the debate should call for it.

Hon. Mr. LETELLIER DE ST. JUST took exception to the course of the Hon. Premier in having made remarks previous to the reading of the papers in English.

Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL then, without preface, read the memorandum in that language, and said he would reserve any remarks he might be disposed to make until other hon. members had spoken.

Hon. Mr. FERGUSON BLAIR said it was not his purpose to dwell upon or to offer opposition to the extensive scheme of federation embracing Canada and the Lower Provinces. It was the first he had heard of it; and, as the subject was a most important one, and one intended to remedy certain grave difficulties, he thought that if on examination it was deemed calculated to effect the desired object, it would be the duty of all real patriots to support it. With regard, however, to the negotiations for reconstructing the Government speaking as an Upper Canadian—for, though members represented the whole country, there were occasions when they must recollect specially the interests of their section—he must say he was not satisfied with what had been done. He was not satisfied that the interests of Upper Canada had been properly considered; nor did he think that the Lower Canada allies of the majority of Upper Canada had been properly dealt with. It appeared from the explanations read that the overtures had been made by Mr. Brown; and he was glad of this, for the sake of his hon. friends opposite, for whom he entertained the highest respect. But it seemed to him that all through the negotiations Mr. Brown had been the conceding party; that he had given up one point after another, and all against the interests of Upper Canada. In his [Mr. Blair’s] mind, the fact that equality of votes in the House entitled one party to an equality of representation in the Cabinet, as stated by Mr. Brown, could not be gainsayed; but, in a day or two that gentleman had consented to accept a fourth. With regard to the leadership of the House, it was the same; he had given that up too. And so with the proposition he had made of holding office without emolument, though he [Mr. Blair] must say that such an arrangement could not properly have been made. If there were members in the Cabinet with nothing to lose, the Governor would have a poor set of advisers. But, in respect of the way in which Mr. Brown’s Lower Canada friends had been treated, he could not approve of it. He had been accustomed to regard two qualifications as essential in public men, viz., fidelity to their party and loyalty to their friends; and, for his part, he could not have pursued such a course. As to the proposed federation, he neither condemned nor approved it — it might be productive of much good, or might be fraught with much evil. He could not gather from the explanations that the scheme was to be submitted to the people; and he thought that the arrangement which would enable the Government to get the supplies and pass their measures was not in accordance with the principles of the British Constitution.

Hon. Mr. MOORE spoke at very great length; and it is, consequently, impossible, with the space at our disposal and the claims of the Assembly, to do more than give a synopsis of his remarks. The hon. member thought it was not necessary for the Government to have come down with details; but that a statement of the results they had arrived at would have been quite sufficient. But he thought it strange that, after the Government had been defeated by an adverse vote, that it should have made an arrangement by which certain members of Parliament should join them after the prorogation. And it appeared to him still more strange that they should negotiate with a person who was not to come at once in the Cabinet.

Hon Mr. CAMPBELL—But who will be a member?

Hon. Mr. MOORE—The fact was that things were to remain as they were until after the prorogation. Then, there was the anomaly that without reference at all to what had taken place the affairs of the Legislature were to go on just as if nothing had happened. The hon. member then remarked upon the fact of the Government entering into negotiations with persons whose position did not involve any responsibility to the Legislature or the country, and that those persons should assume a responsibility which properly could only devolve upon Ministers. The question, also, which the negotiators had assumed to heal was one of the gravest importance to the country; and, taking a statesmanlike view of the subject, he thought that before such an arrangement was contemplated, the people should have been appealed to. He thought that, in conjunctions of this important character, the proper way was to appoint delegates, and to hold conventions, by means of which the views of the country could be elicited. Possibly, the Government did not intend to proceed without that sanction; but, so far, was as nearly as possible a transcript of the British Constitution. The people enjoyed the greatest security to life and property; and there was no country under the sun where the laws were more equal or administered more equitably. In view of these things, he thought no important step, such as the one proposed, should be taken until the people had had the opportunity of expressing their judgment. He had the highest respect for the individual members of the Government; but, at the same time, they might have committed a mistake just as he himself might have done. All he proposed to do was to raise his feeble voice in tones of warning .

Hon. Mr. LETELLIER DE ST. JUST said that after what had been stated yesterday, when the adjournment was asked, he had expected the details of a plan for the pacification of the country; but he could not see that any details had been vouchsafed. There were long reports of conversations, and it was evident that the parties engaging in them had been so distrustful of each other that they had taken precautions to have their sayings duly and carefully stated; but there really was no plan arrived at or disclosed. It was not said into how many Governments the country was to be divided or how the people were to be represented in them; whether equality in representation or representation according to population was to prevail. He for one was desirous of knowing how the representation would be arranged in the Federal Government, and he thought that the House had a right at least to know so much of the plan, if there was a plan. He begged to ask the hon. Premier if it was the case that in the proposed Federal Government the representation was to be based on population.

Hon. Sir E. P. TACHÉ said the hon. member pretended to see no plan in the explanations, but if he had attended carefully to them he would have discovered the basis at least of such a plan, which was afterwards to be ratified by Parliament and the people. However, he thought it was not reasonable for the hon. member after three or four days negotiations upon a most difficult subject which would require weeks and perhaps months to settle to ask for details. The Government proposed to mature a plan during the recess and to submit it to Parliament next session, and when the details were submitted they would of course be open to discussion.

Hon. Mr. LETELLIER DE ST. JUST thought that this was a most strange and unsatisfactory answer, were the members of this House less entitled to information than those of the other? In the Assembly an answer had been given to a similar question, but here we must be satisfied with vague replies. In that House it was distinctly stated in the proposed federal or general Government the representation would be based on population and why should not a similar answer have been given here.

It being six o’clock the Speaker left the Chair.

After the recess —

Hon. Mr. LETELLIER DE ST. JUST said that in the Lower House the question he [Mr. Letellier] had put in this Chamber had been answered in a different way, viz: to the effect that in the proposed arrangements the principle of representation by population had been to some extent conceded. And to accomplish this, a certain combination had been made with a man who had always been considered as holding principles dangerous to Lower Canada. He did not say that the Government were not justified in resorting to extraordinary measures to ensure legislation and quiet, nor did he even object to the scheme proposed but he maintained that the plan which had been promised had not been laid before the House.

Hon. Sir E. P. TACHÉ remarked upon the exceeding energy the hon. member had thrown into his speech, but then it ought to be excused, as this was an extraordinary occasion. He [Mr. Taché] was accused by the hon. member with having withheld information given in the other House, but he solemnly stated that he had stated all he could as a member of the Government, and if the members of the Government in the other House had stated anything else, it was merely the enunciation of their individual opinions, not any arrived at by the Government. The hon. member also represented the Government as on their knees to Mr. Brown, but he thought the position they had taken was one of so dignified a character as would ensure the approbation of the country. Nor was the hon. member more correct in respect of the course he [Mr. Taché] had pursued in the past, when in alliance with the Conservatives the greatest reforms ever effected in the country were accomplished. By means of that alliance the Clergy Reserves and the Seigniorial Tenure had been settled, and the Legislative Council rendered elective. These were the fruits of that alliance, and forsooth, it was for these things that the hon. member threw the stone at him. As to the measure proposed in the memorandum, it would be submitted to the country in good time, but not by means of conventions, which were too Republican a course for this country to pursue, and he did not think the federation would at all loosen the ties which bound us to the mother country.

Hon. Mr. HOLTON moved that the order of the day be taken up.

The SPEAKER said that when Ministerial explanations were being given or debated, all other business was to give way.

Hon. Mr. DE LA TERRIERE spoke at some length, and said the arrangement with Mr. Brown was resorted to for the mere purpose of avoiding a general election. He protested against all confederations, and said that the only remedy for the difficulties between Upper Canada and Lower Canada was the repeal, pure and simple, of the Union. He would, for his part, do all that he could to oppose the scheme now proposed.

Hon. Mr. SANBORN wished to know from the hon. Commissioner of Crown Lands whether the measure proposed met the demands of Upper Canada for many years.

Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL said the hon. member could read for himself the explanations given, and was as fully competent to draw conclusions as he himself might be.

Hon. Mr. FERGUSON BLAIR said that yesterday the details of the plan were promised, but had not been given.

Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL begged to remind the hon. member that yesterday the number of new members to be introduced into the Cabinet was not settled, but to-day it was done, and that was a most important detail which had been stated. As to the details of the federation system, it was clearly impossible in so short a time to mature them. We were now in the fourth session, during which little or nothing had been done, and surely it had at last become necessary to find some means of meeting the difficulties which prevented legislation. These difficulties were the results of the demands of Upper Canada for representation by population, and its refusal by Lower Canada on the other; and what would have been the effect if this mode of dealing with these difficulties had not been sought — another appeal to the country, with all its attendant expense and trouble. For his (Mr. Campbell’s) part, he had hoped that an increase of population in Lower Canada consequent upon the discovery of gold and other causes would have removed the uneasiness, but circumstances had created immediate embarrassment which had to be met. It had been contended that the people should have been consulted, and he, without speaking authoritatively, would say that no doubt the people would be consulted, though not in the way of conventions, as was proposed, but in the way known to the constitution through their representatives. No matter who was in power at the time before it became law, it would be submitted to the people through a general election. In that way, and that only, could such a measure be submitted to the people. As to other details of the plan, it was impossible to give them. The general basis had been already agreed upon, and when the details were arranged, they also would, of course, be submitted to Parliament. The hon. member (Moore) had also said the constitution was to be changed, but he would now see that no such change was to be made without consulting Parliament. The Lower Provinces, viz., Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, had already agreed to consider the subject of a Federal Union; but this was done through their legislators, who had delegated members to confer on the subject. Now, in the face of all these things, it was clear that greater details could not be given. That hon. member had further anticipated that there would be increased expense, but he (Mr. Campbell) thought differently, and at all events Parliament would also be consulted on the point. He [Mr. Moore] also said that the junction of the parties interested in this arrangement was wrong. Well, he [Mr. Campbell] to a great extent was opposed to coalitions, and there was no doubt that the gentlemen who had negociated the arrangement were equally so; he meant the Hon. Mr. Brown and Messrs. J. A. Macdonald and Galt; but the gravity of the political situation demanded extraordinary self-abnegation, and the necessities of the country had prevailed over the feelings of those gentlemen. The hon. member then went on to say that the vote which had brought about this negotiation might have been got over, for it was not really aimed against the Government; but then a dissolution and general election, with the possibility of no special change for the better to the relation of parties, had led to the acceptance of the proposition to seek an escape from such a necessity by the attempt to agree upon a basis which would be acceptable to both parties. The scheme had met the approval of the Colonial Office years ago, which had recently, as he had shown, been contemplated by the other Provinces, and which even in the country had in past time engaged the attention of some of its most talented men. The Government would endeavor to mature a scheme which would meet the approbation of Parliament, and if they did not, then Parliament would reject, that was all — and at any rate, the Government would have the consciousness of having endeavored to find a solution to very grave and obstinate difficulties.

Hon. Mr. FERGUSSON BLAIR said that he understood that the subject of Representation by Population had not yet been considered, and that if a contrary opinion had been stated in the other House it was an individual opinion, not that of the Government.—The hon. member then went on to remark that in fact little had been done that he could see, except agreeing to talk about a Federation. As to appeal to the people he did not say it should be submitted in a preliminary way to the country. The hon. member (Mr. Campbell) had said it would be submitted to them at a general election, but how would Parliament which was to pronounce upon the subject be chosen? Why, under the present state of things so that there would be really no guarantee that the interests of Upper Canada in the matter would be consulted.

Hon. Mr. SANBORN said that in proposing a question to the hon. Commissioner of Crown Lands he had done so in consequence of a statement of Hon. Mr. Brown in the other House that he had only consented to negociate on this subject, because of the concession of Representation by Population in the proposed federal Government. He was not prepared to object to the scheme, but he thought it was a step which would lead to a result which would be happy for the Province. However he was not without apprehension of difficulty in the way. What he had heard in the other House had given him to see that parties there were very desirous to know all that was intended for the arrangement. He did not think that the recognition of the federation principle alone would meet the difficulty. No one that he knew of had combatted that principle, but there was another question which had caused a good deal of feeling, viz.: Representation by Population, and he wanted to know if that principle was to any extent recognized in the arrangement. This should be clearly and plainly stated so that there might be no misunderstanding on the subject. If there was to be federation of the two Provinces and the principle of Representation by Population was to be applied to it, then let it be fully known. But there was another subject to be considered, and it was the representation of the English-speaking people in Lower Canada. The Lower Canadian French had resisted Representation by Population for fear that their institutions had never been threatened by the English inhabitants of Lower Canada, and he would be the last to raise his voice to create anxiety on the subject. He contended, however, that the English-speaking people of Lower Canada would not be guaranteed against injustice if there was no provision for their specific representation in the scheme. The hon. member then dwelt at some length upon the general impropriety of coalitions when made by those who all along had been opposed, came together in office; but considered at the same time that occasions might arise when such coalitions would be necessary, and perhaps the present was such an occasion.