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Date: 1865-09-05
By: Province of Canada (Parliament), Morning Chronicle
Citation: “Provincial Parliament. Legislative Assembly. Tuesday, Sept. 5th” [Quebec] Morning Chronicle (6 September 1865).
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PROVINCIAL PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

TUESDAY, SEPT. 5th

The SPEAKER took the Chair at three o’clock.

RETURNS.

The SPEAKER laid on the table the returns of the Grand Trunk, Montreal and Champlain, and Buffalo and Lake Huron Railways, asked for by order of this House. (Hear, hear.)

BILLS INTRODUCED.

By Mr. CURRIER—Bill to incorporate the Canadian Institute of the City of Ottawa.
By Hon. Mr. McDOUGALL —Bill relative to Grammar Schools in Upper Canada.

THE COURSOL CASE.

In reply to Hon. Mr. DORION—

Hon. Mr. CARTIER said that the papers connected with Mr. Torrance’s report on Judge Coursol’s case were very voluminous. The copying of these documents was finished, and the work of copying the report, which was upwards of 200 pages, was going on and would be finished shortly, when it would be submitted. A copy of the report had been communicated to Judge Coursal several days ago, in accordance with his own request, and that might account for the appearance of a portion of it in the papers.

CITY OF MONTREAL INCORPORATION.

Hon. Mr. CARTIER moved the third reading of the Bill to explain certain enactments of the Acts of Incorporation of the City of Montreal.—Carried.

MONTREAL ST. BRIDGET’S REFUGE.

On motion of Hon. Mr. McGEE the House went into Committee on the Bill to incorporate the Montreal St. Bridget’s Refuge—Mr. MORRIS in the chair.
The Committee reported the Bill with amendments.

DEATH PENALTY.

On motion of the Hon. Mr. CARTIER the House received the report of the Committee of the Whole on the bill for abolishing the penalty of death in certain cases.

MUTUAL ASSURANCE ASSOCIATIONS.

On motion of Hon. Mr. LANGEVIN the House went into Committee on the Bill to amend the Act to incorporate the Mutual Assurance Associations of the Diocese of Quebec, Three Rivers, Montreal, and St. Hyacinthe—Mr. WALSH in the chair.
The Committee reported the Bill without amendment.

JUSTICE OF THE PEACE.

On motion of Hon. Mr. COCKBURN the HOUSE went into Committee on the bill in reference to the qualification of Justices of the Peace—Mr. J. S. SMITH in the Chair.
The Committee reported the bill without amendment.

SECOND READINGS.

The following the bills in the hands of members of the Government were read a second time:
An Act to authorize the Cobourg and Peterborough Railway Company to construct a tramway or railways from the Marmora Iron Works tot he River Trent, or to Rice Lake, and for other purposes—Hon. Mr. Sol. Gen. COCKBURN.
Bill to amend and extend the acts relating to the Cobourg and Peterborough Railway Company—Mr. Sol. Gen. COCKBURn.
Bill to incorporate La Caisse d’Epargne St. Roch de Montreal—Hon. Atty. Gen. CARTIER.
Bill to incorporate the Montreal Licensed Victuallers Protection Society—Hon. Mr. Atty. Gen. CARTIER
Bill to incorporate the Bank of Northhumberland—Hon. Mr. Sol. Gen. COCKBURN.
Bill to provide against the introduction and spreading of disorders affecting certain animals. (From the Legislative Council.)—Hon. Mr. McGEE.
An Act especially to incorporate the Tadousac Hotel and Sea Bathing Company. (From the Legislative Council.)—Hon. Mr. Sol. Gen. LANGEVIN.

House in Committee of Supply

On motion of Alexander Galt [Sherbrooke, Minister of Finance], the House went into Committee of Supply—Alexander Morris [Lanark South] in the Chair.

The following items were passed.

Pensions:
Samuel Waller, late Clerk to Committee $400
John Bright, late Messenger 80
Louis Gagne, ” ” 80
G.B. Faribault, late Clerk, Assist. L.A. 1,600
Mrs. Catherine Antrobus 800
Mrs. Charlotte McCormick 400
Pierre Bouchard 100
Jacques Brien 80
Pensions:
New Indian Annuities 4,400
Lower Canada 400

On the item of rents, insurance and repairs of public buildings, including two years rent of Rideau Hall, $53,000.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay] said that a house had a now been rented at nearly £1,000 a-year for the Governor-General [Viscount Monck], which was not, of course, yet occupied or wanted. Some explanation ought to be given in regard to this item.

Jean Chapais [Kamouraska, Commissioner of Public Works] replied that as there had been some difficulty in obtaining the deed of  sale, it had been delayed. The land required was very eligible as a residence for His Excellency [Viscount Monck], both in regard to extent and situation. The Government had a lease of the land for 12 years, at $4,000 per annum, with right to purchase. The contract for the new buildings in connexion with the Governor-General’s residence had been given out, the estimate being $29,301.

In reply to Antoine-Aimé Dorion [Hochelaga],

Jean Chapais [Kamouraska, Commissioner of Public Works] said that the estimate for the other necessary buildings on the ground was $17,521. The lot contained 77 acres, and there was a condition in the agreement enabling us to purchase the land within three years, with the present buildings thereon, at $70,000; the price, should the purchase be made after that time, to be fixed by arbitration.

Antoine-Aimé Dorion [Hochelaga] said that we had always been particularly unfortunate in respect to the residences of our Governors. Cataraqui was rather a bad speculation for the Government, and now we had this Rideau Hall business, which also seemed an unbusiness-like transaction. He did not see why the Government should be called upon to pay rent for this property since June or July, 1864, at the very large rate of four thousand dollars per annum, although it appeared a satisfactory title-deed to the property had only been made out within the past few weeks. The fact was it appeared, after adding up the various amounts, that the property would cost the Province the very large sum of thirty-one thousands pounds.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear, and no, no.

Antoine-Aimé Dorion [Hochelaga]—The hon. gentleman went on to denounce the whole transaction.

John A. Macdonald [Kingston, Attorney-General West and Minister of Militia] said the Governor-General [Viscount Monck] being the representative of Her Majesty in this Province, he ought certainly to be provided with a fitting residence. At the time Ottawa was selected for the Seat of Government, a portion of the general plan was the providing of a proper residence for His Excellency [Viscount Monck].

Luther Holton [Chateauguay]—But of the $900,000 originally proposed.

John A. Macdonald [Kingston, Attorney-General West and Minister of Militia]—

Hon. John A. Macdonald said that all the plan respecting this matter were then submitted to the House. As the public buildings went on, however, entailing great expenditure, the expediency of building a large palatial residence appeared more problematical every day. The idea of erecting such a building was, consequently, postponed. There was no appropriation for the erection of a residence for His Excellency [Viscount Monck], and neither the hon. gentlemen opposite, when in office, nor the existing Government, entertained the design of construction such a building at present; and, as some building had to be procured for His Excellency, in the meantime, most people would agree that the renting of the Rideau Hall and surrounding grounds was the best thing that could be done. The Government was compelled, to a certain degree, to acquire the property. As the present buildings were too small for the accommodation of His Excellency{Viscount Monck] and suite, additional ones had to be provided, and, consequently, a clause in the arrangements enabled the Government, at the end of three years, to acquire the freehold of the property for a specific fixed sum. It was fixed after due consideration by Sir E.P. Taché, who consulted, at Ottawa, officers of the Board of Works on the subject; and the price was fair and reasonable. Therefore the Government could acquire the property at $70,000. The arbitration would not, as was feared, be based upon the improved state of the property after Government occupation, but upon the original value. The plans of the new building were excellent, and hon. gentlemen must approve of them, and also of furnishing a proper residence for the Governor or Viceroy of the large and important state which would formed under Confederation.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear.

In reply to Antoine-Aimé Dorion [Hochelaga],

Jean Chapais [Kamouraska, Commissioner of Public Works] said that the arbitration—in case of purchase by the Government—would be based upon the present value of the property, and not including the value of buildings about to be erected. The hon. gentleman went on to say that the utmost care had been taken in drawing up the estimates and contracts so as to combine economy with comfort and beaty of appearance.

John Sandfield Macdonald [Cornwall] must congratulate the Government on the declaration that regard would be had to economy in this matter. He adverted to the Spencer Wood repairs, which, he said, was a solitary instance of such work having been kept within the original price. The Government of the day was subjected to all kinds of importunities in connexion with the works—they were asked to change this or change that; anything in fact for the sake of a change. These suggestions, however, were resisted, and a satisfactory result was obtained—the Spencer Wood residence being confessedly in every way commodious and suitable. The hon. gentleman concluded by saying that it was very strange we should only have information of the details of this matter, now, although the arrangements were made in June of last year.

Jean Chapais [Kamouraska, Commissioner of Public Works] said that he had given information to the House on the subject of the lease during the session of 1864, and had devoted a paragraph to it in his report, which he read.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay] said that the conduct of the Government in the transaction respecting the Governor’s residence was quite in keeping with the whole management of the Ottawa Buildings; and concluded by attacking the Government for not giving any information as to the present movement on the subject, and for not placing any item respecting it on the estimates.

John A. Macdonald [Kingston, Attorney-General West and Minister of Militia] read from the reported debates of the session of 1864 the reply given by the Hon. Commissioner of Public Works [Jean Chapais], in reply to the member for North Simcoe (Mr. McConkey), in which full information was given respecting the lease. Then no item could have been placed on the estimates, inasmuch as, when the last estimates were brought down, no expenditure had been incurred and nothing had been done.

Alexander Mackenzie [Lambton] said that no blame could attach to the Government in respect to information. Last session there were no estimates, and the previous session closed in June, 1864, so that we could have had nothing about it in the estimates until now. At the same time, he thought the rent rather high, and he felt it to be his duty strongly to urge upon the Government the necessity of allowing no extras and no departure whatever from the contract.

William Powell [Carleton] said that if hon. gentlemen attempted to make capital out of this matter, their stock must be very small. The Government had made an excellent bargain, and could dispose of the property, in small lots, for more than had been asked for it in the negotiations with them. No other property so suitable for the purpose could have been obtained at the price agreed upon.

George Brown [Oxford South, President Executive Council] praised the property, which was in every way a desirable one. He thought, looking at everything, that the Government had not given an extravagant price. As to the new buildings, the Commissioner [Jean Chapais] had procured large reductions in the first-named estimate, and had a clause put in the contract and agreed to—to the effect that there would be no extras.

Antoine-Aimé Dorion [Hochelaga] attacked the Government’s agreement, and general course in regard to this matter. What was the fact? The Government had given $29,000 worth of work, without previously obtaining the consent of Parliament. The Government ought not to have given this contract before the supplies were voted. The Government were doing as they did in the case of Spencer Wood, Cataraqui House, and others: spend the money first, and ask Parliamentary sanction afterwards.

Robert Bell [Russell] said it was well that the discussion had arisen, because he was satisfied that many members had never seen the property, and had not been made acquainted with it; but when they learnt all the facts and circumstances connected with the property, they would be convinced that the purchase was not ill-considered, or made without a due regard to economy. It was beyond a question the most suitable place for the residence of the Governor-General that could have been fixed upon. The grounds had attained a degree of beauty and ornamentation which no other land within miles could reach within 30 years. The proprietor had been cultivating and improving it since 1835, and had spent large sums in the work. The ground might be called the southern boundary of Ottawa city, from which only the Rideau river divided it. The property afforded a splendid prospect north and south, abounded in landscape beauties, and was in every respect exceedingly eligible for the Governor-General’s residence.

He (Mr. B.) hoped the item would be passed. In conclusion, he remarked that the hon. member for Cornwall [John Sandfield Macdonald] had thrown out of an imputation against the Ottawa members, to the effect that for their support of the Government they had obtained this advantage, of the purchase of the property in question for His Excellency’s [Viscount Monck] residence. Now, that hon. gentleman, considering the conduct of his own Government, should have been the last to throw that stone.

John Sandfield Macdonald [Cornwall]—I uttered no such imputation.

Robert Bell [Russell] said he had, then, misunderstood the hon. gentleman, and had nothing further to say on the matter. The House having heard the facts in regard to this property, and learned its peculiar eligibility for the purpose contemplated, would, he trysted, vote for the item proposed.

The item was carried.

The subject of roads and bridges was next taken up.

On the item for colonization roads,

Jean Chapais [Kamouraska, Commissioner of Public Works] desired to offer a few words of explanation on this subject of colonization. He had studied the whole matter to the best of his ability, and he had come to the conclusion that the system was in part defective, more particularly in connexion with the smaller roads. The Government had determined, after the completion of the small roads at present in course of construction, to open up no more such, but to adopt a different system in this respect. New roads, however, would be commenced. He might say that new explorations had been commenced for a road from Quebec to Lake St. John. The explorations had been very successful, and a splendid road had been discovered, and the people who had settled in that region ran no risk of starving. A small sum had been granted to open a new winter road from Quebec to Lake St. John, which it was expected would be completed this fall.

Antoine-Aimé Dorion [Hochelaga]—What is the distance?

Jean Chapais [Kamouraska, Commissioner of Public Works]—About 40 leagues.

Jean-Baptiste Pouliot [Témiscouata] congratulated the Hon. Commissioner of Public Works [Jean Chapais] on his change to something like practical ideas on the subject of colonization. It was only a pity that he had not been in office longer, so that he might have carried out the various reforms he professed to desire. He did not hesitate, however, to say that that hon. gentleman would not have occupied his present position but for him (Mr. Pouliot). The hon. gentleman went on to charge the Hon. Commissioner of Public Works [Jean Chapais] with having acted unfairly towards his (Mr. Pouliot’s) county in the matter of colonization grants in the county of Temiscouata, and with having used the same for the purpose of making political capital.

It being six o’clock, the House adjourned until half-past seven.

The Legislative Assembly stopped for dinner recess.

After the recess—

BILLS FROM THE UPPER HOUSE.

A number of bills from the Upper House were advanced a stage.

COURT OF QUEEN’S BENCH, L.C.

Hon. Mr. CARTIER introduced a bill intituled an Act relative to the Court of Queen’s Bench of Lower Canada.—Read a first time.

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES.

Hon. Mr. GALT laid before the House a message from His Excellency the Governor General, couched in the following language:—“Monck: His Excellency the Governor-General transmits the supplementary estimates of the sums required for the service of the Province, for the year ending 30th June, 1866, and recommends them to the attention of the House.”

On motion of Hon. Mr. GALT, the supplementary estimates were referred to Committee of Supply.

THE CASE OF CAPT. PRINCE.

Mr. McKELLAR called the attention of the Government to a statement in a Toronto paper, that Capt. Prince, of the Toronto Police Force, had been suspended by the Police Commissioners of that city. Now he (Mr. McKellar) was responsible for the act which had brought this upon Capt. Prince, having asked him for suggestions and information, and if there was any offence committed by that gentleman he was blameable therefor. The step taken by the Commissioners appeared to be of the most improper and arbitrary kind. One of the Commissioners was a servant of the Government, and might be accountable to them to some extent for this act. Capt. Prince was one of the most worthy and efficient officers in the Province. The offence was—furnishing him (Mr. McKellar) with some suggestions in regard to a matter under the consideration of a Parliamentary Committee, and which had been asked for by it. He thought the Government should act promptly in this matter, and call upon Mr. Boomer, the Police Magistrate, to state upon what grounds Capt. Prince’s suspension and taken place. (Hear, hear.)

Hon. J. A. MACDONALD said he was rather glad this matter had been alluded to. He had read the report of the conduct of the Police Commissioners with equal surprise and regret. The fact was, that Capt. Prince would have been blameable if he had not furnished the suggestions and information asked for by a member of this House. Even if he had forwarded them to the Committee, of his own mere motion, it was quite unobjectionable. It was quite competent for him or any other citizen to offer suggestions, etc., for the improvement of the law. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. M.) could not perceive by what peculiar process of reasoning the Commissioners considered it a mark of disrespect to them that the suggestions were forwarded direct to the Parliamentary Committee without being sent through them. The suspension appeared to be a high-handed and most improper act, but the difficulty was that Mr. Prince was not an officer of the Government. He would never have been removed by the Government, had he been in their service, for an act like this. True he been in their service, for an act like this. True Mr. Boomer was not a member of the Police Commission, but he (Mr. M.) did not know if Government had any control over him in this matter. He would immediately put himself in commutation with Mr. Boomer to ascertain why—he being engaged in the administration of justice—he had thought proper to reprove a person for making suggestions for the amendment of the law. He (Mr. M) hoped that the remarks made in this House would have the effect of bringing about the restoration of Capt. Prince to a position which he had ably filled, and from which he had been improperly removed. (Hear, hear.)

Hon. J. S. MACDONALD said that he entirely concurred in the remarks of his hon. friend the Attorney-General West, in so far as Capt. Prince was concerned. At the same time, he desired to direct the attention of the Government to an article in a leading journal, which was under the control of the Hon. President of the Council, and in which an attack of the most serious nature was made upon one of the Commissioners who in the employ of the Government. The hon. gentleman concluded by reading the article referred to.

Hon. J. A. MACDONALD said that of course the hon. gentleman was perfectly right in directing attention to the article in question. He (Mr. Macdonald) had not read the article. The charges made against Mr. Boomer would, however be transmitted to that gentleman. (Hear, hear.)

Hon. Mr. BROWN expressed his approbation of the general conduct of Mr. Prince, Chief of the Toronto Police, and bore testimony of his own experience to that gentleman’s efficiency as a public officer. He could not speak as to the particular article in question, inasmuch as he did not know the precise nature of its contents. (Hear, hear.) At the same time he might say that he considered that Capt. Prince had been treated in a very extraordinary manner. He was free to admit, however, that the police system was found to work much better under the control of commissioners than under the management of the municipal corporations. (Hear, hear.)

After some further conversation the matter was dropped.

THE DEATH PENALTY.

Hon. Mr. CARTIER moved the third reading of the bill to abolish the death-penalty in certain cases.
Mr. CHAMBERS opposed the bill, and desired to record his most emphatic protest against it. The hon. gentleman went on at considerable length to deny the advisability of removing the death-penalty from the statute-book in certain cases, inasmuch as, in the opinion of great leading jurists, the fear of the extreme punishment of the law served in a very great measure to deter men from the Commission of great crimes. We should be very. Careful, indeed, in this matter, and not wantonly throw away the safeguards to life and property which we at present possessed. If great crimes were unfortunately so rife at present—with the statutes exacting the death-penalty in full force—how much worse must it naturally be if a number of these enactments be removed. He considered that it would be but right to await at least the result of the enquiry now going on in England on the very subject which occupied us. He therefore desired to express his entire dissent from the measure now under consideration.

Mr. BOWN thought the hon. member for Brockville, entirely misapprehended the position, and went on to allude humorously to the nature of his arguments.

Mr. JACKSON entirely approved of the principle of the bill. He congratulated the Hon. Attorney General inhaling introduced the measure, which would have his most hearty support.

Mr. HUOT spoke at considerable length on the subject of capital punishment which, in his opinion, was erroneous in principle. He congratulated the Hon. Attorney General East on having made a step in the right direction by the bill now introduced. At the same time he did not think it went far enough, and he regretted exceedingly that it did not contain a clause for the abolition of capital punishment on convictions for political matters. The public mind he believed tended in that direction, as was evident by the wide-spread sympathy everywhere evinced for the state-prisoner of Fortress Monroe, ex-President Jefferson Davis, notwithstanding the fact that he was guilty of being the cause of the sanguinary war which for so many years had devised the neighbouring Republic. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman concluded by reviewing the many instances of erroneous verdicts here and elsewhere in proof of the desirability of going a step further in legislating upon the subject of capital punishment.

Mr. PERRAULT congratulated the Hon. Attorney-General East upon having gone so far towards the attainment of a very desirable end; but at the same time he regretted that the measure was incomplete. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Cartier) might have rendered his measure much more useful by adopting the views of his hon. colleague, the Solicitor-General East (Mr. Langevin) on the subject of the desirability of abolishing public executions. It would be remembered that a couple of sessions back, the hon. gentleman in question had introduced a bill providing that the last sentence of the law should be executed in private, instead of in public, and that the principle of this bill had been affirmed by the House. It was an excellent measure, inasmuch as it had for object to change the character of the death-penalty from being a mere revolting spectacle, pregnant with disgraceful scenes, and full of demoralizing tendencies, and clothe it with more decency and solemnity. Holding these views, he would move to amend the bill now before the House, by adding to it the principal clauses of the bill of the Hon. Mr. Langevin, who would thus have an opportunity of voting in accordance with his own views.

The SPEAKER read the clause proposed in amendments, in favor of private executions.

Hon. Mr. CARTIER said the Government must, of course, oppose the amendment, which had no reference to the subject under consideration, the manner of inflicting the death-penalty. He thought that if the hon. mover was in favor of the abolition of the death-penalty in cases for which the present bill provided, he should certainly withdraw the amendment which interfered with the measure to abolish capital punishment in other cases.

Hon. J. S. MACDONALD doped the mover of the amendment would withdraw it. The present bill was an instalment of law in the direction of the abolition of the death-penalty, which should be accepted. The further amendment to abolish the death-penalty in all cases could afterwards moved.

Hon. Mr. HOLTON contended the amendment was germane tot he present bill, and there was nothing in the remarks of the Att’y Gen. East.

Hon. Mr. McGEE did not see that the amendment proposed by the hon. member for Richelieu (Mr. Perrault) was at all germane to the bill. The latter proposed to abolish the death penalty in certain cases, while the amendment related to the carrying out of the law. They were two entirely distinct propositions. There was a river in Monmouth commencing with M and a river in Macedon commencing with M, but there the connexion to censed. The bill and the amendment referred to two entirely distinct matters, though both were good in principle. The bill was good and he would therefore vote for it; and if the proposition of the hon. member for Richelieu (Mr. Perrault) afterwards came up at a proper time and in proper shape he would vote for it. (Hear, hear.)

Mr DUNKIN said that the amendment at this stage of the bill was entirely objectionable, and would have the effect of putting the measure back a stage. The amendment was not so germane to the matter as to warrant this course. He hoped the motion would be withdrawn.

Mr. PERRAULT said he had no desire to embarrass the Government or the Hon. Att. Gen. East on this occasion, and, congratulating him upon his step in the right direction, would withdraw the motion. (Hear, and laughter.)

The question was then put on the third reading of the bill, which was carried on the following division—

YEAS.—Messrs. Alleyn, Archambault, Beaubien, Bell (Russell), Bellerose, Blanchet, Bourassa, Bown, Burwell, Bowman, Carling, Caron, Cartier, Cartwright, Chapais, Cockburn, Corneillier, Coupal, Currier, De Boucherville, Dickson, A. A. Dorion, Eric Dorion, Duckett, Alex. Dufresne, Joseph Dufresne, Dunkin, Dunsford, Evanturel, Thomas Ferguson, William Ferguson, Fortier, Gibbs, Gagnon, Galt, Gaudet, Geoffrion, Gaucher, Higgington, Haultain, Jackson, Jones, Labreche-Viger, Laframboise, Lajoie, Langevin, Le Doutillier, Morrison, John Macdonald, J. A. Macdonald, J. S. Macdonald, Alex. Mackenzie, McConkey, McDougall, McGee McKellar, Morris, Munro, O’Halloran, Paquette, Parker, Perrault, Pinsonneault, Pope, Pouliot, Raymond, Rémillard, Robitaille, Rose, J. J. Ross, Sylvester J. Ross, Rankin, Scatcherd, J. Shuter Smith, Somerville, Stirton, Street, Sylvain, Tremblay, Thibaudeau, Thompson, T. C. Wallbridge, Walsh, Wells, White, Wilson, and Alonzo Wright.—94.

NAYS.—Messrs. Ault, Chambers, Magill, Poulin, Walter Ross, and Rymal.—6.

The Supplies

Alexander Galt [Sherbrooke, Minister of Finance] moved

That the Speaker do leave the Chair, and that the House go into Committee of Supply.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay] said that, before the recess, he had asked whether it was the intention of the Government to invite any action of the House this session, in reference to the Order in Council upon the Postal Subsidy. Since then the supplementary estimates had been distributed, and the question was partly, but not entirely, answered by them. That part of the question with regard to the earnings of the Grand Trunk Railroad for the transmissions of the mails subsequent to the passage of the Arrangement’s Act, in June, 1862, was, he repeated, answered by the supplementary estimates, and other papers in the hands of members. But what he (Mr. H.) now desired to ascertain was—whether the Finance Minister proposed inviting any action during the present session, on the allowance awarded by the report of the Commissioners on the Postal Subsidy, and by the Order in Council? During the former period, it would be remembered, it had been considered sufficient to allow the Company $70 a mile, but now it was recommended to give them $110 per mile. It would be well to know all about the period for which the Company were to receive the larger rate.

Alexander Galt [Sherbrooke, Minister of Finance] did not think the hon. gentleman could expect the Government to consider this question, when a motion for going into Committee of Supply was before the House. He thought it was an improper precedent to ask information of this kind at this stage, when it could be ascertained in Committee when the subject to which it related came up. The question would be regarded as a notice of motion for information, which would be given when the item which it concerned came up in Committee, and it was very probable the Government would have given information on this matter in any case.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay] said the papers submitted disclosed most extraordinary conduct on the part of hon. gentlemen opposite. The Government had a memorandum from the Deputy Postmaster-General, dated yesterday, going to explain an unwarrantable and unauthorized transaction of theirs, which formed the subject of discussion in this House in Committee of Supply, the other day. Yet they said they would not give information on the other branch of the subject. We and the public could draw the necessary inference from their reticence.

George Brown [Oxford South, President Executive Council] said that as to the country drawing such inference, he thought the House would draw their inference from the conduct of the hon. gentleman in starting up, when it was moved that the House go into Committee of Supply, in which stage he could obtain all the information wanted—and demanding explanations as to an item not under consideration. Before we had an opportunity of discussing the matter he picked out an item, and asked information on it for purposes of his own, and because we objected to his unreasonable proposition he talked about our motives being dealt with by the country.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, and laughter.

The motion was carried and the House went into Committee of Supply—Thomas Street [Welland] in the Chair.

The consideration of the item for colonization roads having been resumed.

Jean-Baptiste Pouliot [Témiscouata] took up the subject at the point at which he had left it before the recess. He (Mr. Pouliot) was a practical friend of the colonization cause, and if the Hon. Commissioner [Jean Chapais] had followed his suggestions the settlement of the country of Temiscouata might have been promoted to a much greater extent than had yet been accomplished. He regretted that so little had been done that was really practical in the way of colonization. He supposed that a thorough reform and revision of the system was postponed until after the settlement of the great question of Confederation.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear, and laughter.

Jean-Baptiste Pouliot [Témiscouata]—In the meantime our young men were leaving the country—even cadets of the Military School were going away—and nothing was being done to retain them in the Province. This might be easily done by a reform in the colonization system.

Frederick Haultain [Peterborough] spoke of the importance of the subject of colonization and emigration. He would be very glad therefore to hear something definite from the Government as to their policy on this matter. He was glad to see an item of $50,000 for colonization roads in Upper Canada, and he was sure the people of that section of the Province would feel a satisfaction on learning that the sum had been set apart for a good purpose. At the same time they would feel still greater satisfaction if an assurance were given that the money thus voted would be applied to the purpose for which it was intended, inasmuch as a belief prevailed that the Upper Canadian appropriation was being held over while the whole of the Lower Canadian appropriation was expended. There should be a thorough reform in our system, so as to alleviate the hardships to which new settlers were subject. The result of our adherence to an incomplete, or rather to an effete and obsolete system, had a most injurious effect in depriving us of a large and most valuable class of our population, who went elsewhere to obtain facilities for settlement which they could not obtain here. Under these circumstances he would hear with pleasure from the Government some indication of their policy on this important subject. He would like, for instance, to learn that it was intended to increase the free grants and to reduce the price of lands.

Thomas McConkey [Simcoe North] (who was very indistinctly heard in the gallery) was understood to concur with the hon. member for Peterborough (Col. Haultain) as to the importance of this subject. He would not now occupy the attention of the House on this question, inasmuch as he intended to move a series of resolutions on the subject. He would be glad, however, to learn from the Government what policy they intended to pursue on this subject.

Christopher Dunkin [Brome] would like to know whether he was to understand the hon. Commissioner of Crown Lands[1], in the explanation he had given, to say that they system of small roads had been abandoned?

Jean Chapais [Kamouraska, Commissioner of Public Works] replied in the affirmative—with the exception, however, of small roads which were actually under contract.

Christopher Dunkin [Brome]—Does the hon. gentleman consider that all the roads in my country are finished?

Jean Chapais [Kamouraska, Commissioner of Public Works] was understood to reply in the negative.

Christopher Dunkin [Brome] said that when the Macdonald-Sicotte Government came into power he had received a very polite note from the Government on the subject of colonization roads in his country. He returned a polite answer, of course, but nothing was done, and he heard nothing about it. When the next Government came in he had no communication on the subject; but when the present Government came into power, he had again received a polite note, and returned a polite reply; but he was not aware that very much had been yet done.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear, and laughter.

Christopher Dunkin [Brome]—He did not mention this matter by way of making a complain, but merely in order that the facts might be known.

Robert Bell [Russell] approved of the policy of the Hon. Commissioner of Public Works [Jean Chapais] as regards the future construction of colonization roads. This was the right policy, and that calculated to afford the best results. The main point raised by the member for Peterborough [Frederick Haultain] was that money voted for colonization roads in Upper Canada had not even expended for that purpose. Was he correct as to the hon. member’s meaning?

Frederick Haultain [Peterborough]—Not quite correct.

Robert Bell [Russell] said he also understood that there was now unexpended, at the disposal of the Commissioner of Crown Lands[2], a larger amount voted for Upper Canada than had been granted by the last estimates.

Frederick Haultain [Peterborough] said there was a general belief in the country that the money voted from year to year for colonization roads in Upper Canada was not expended for that purpose. He was not personally aware whether that was the case or not. He thought, however, that, during the last few years the balances had been properly used.

Robert Bell [Russell] agreed with the views of the hon. member for Peterborough in this matter, and could confirm the statement that moneys voted for colonization purposes in Upper Canada had not been so employed. He believed it had not been employed at all, but stood to the credit of the Commissioner of Crown Lands[3]. He thought it was much to be regretted that money voted yearly for colonization purposes in Upper Canada was left unemployed, without beneficial result to the country. He trusted this state of things would not be continued, and that the money voted for colonization purposes would be employed as intended, and not allowed to lie up useless from year to year.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear.

Arthur Rankin [Essex] asked whether we were to understand that there was a large unexpended balance at the credit of Upper Canada on account of colonization?

Jean Chapais [Kamouraska, Commissioner of Public Works]—I think so.

James Dunsford [Victoria] (portion of whose remarks were inaudible in the gallery) was understood to say that he had found upon enquiry that the amount actually available was sixty thousand dollars.

Arthur Rankin [Essex] contended that if as yet nothing had been done towards determining the best mode of expending the colonization monies, the best thing to be done was to consider and resolve upon some good system of applying the funds in question.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear.

Arthur Rankin [Essex]—The hon. gentleman then went on to comment upon the wants of the section of the country with which he was more immediately acquainted. There should be a road connecting the Algoma district with the Bobcaygeon road. The former locality was completely cut off from communication of the remainder of the country during a great portion of the year, He did not mean to urge this road because there were settlers along its proposed line, but because there were settlers at the other end of the line who should be afforded means of egress. The length of road actually required to be constructed would not much exceed two hundred miles.

Alexander Mackenzie [Lambton] was understood to say the distance was about three hundred miles.

John Sandfield Macdonald [Cornwall] was in favor of doing everything we possibly could towards the settlement of the country, but was averse to useless and expensive undertakings. There was no use whatever in extending several hundred miles of road through a wild country, where there were no settlers. What we should do was let our action keep pace with the opening-up and settlement of the country, instead of going so far in advance of it as to render our large expenditure of money absolutely useless.

William Powell [Carleton] said that the hon. member for Cornwall (Mr. Macdonald) was most unfortunate in his peculiar antipathy to the progress of the country. The hon. gentleman’s forefathers came to Canada and did all they could to build up the country, and the hon. gentleman himself had very creditably created his own fortune and, so to speak, worked out his own salvation here.

Some Hon. Members—Laughter and cheers.

William Powell [Carleton]—Why should he now try to prevent or discourage others from doing the same thing? One day he insulted emigrants by saying that they came here to be “white-washed”—another day he opposed railroads, and now he objected to colonization roads.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear.

William Powell [Carleton]—He believed the colonization of the country was a most important question; and he was of opinion that the roads were judiciously located and should be extended. It was a great mistake to say there were no more good lands available for settlement in the country. On the contrary, we had an immense quantity of such land—land better than that from which the Hon. Attorney General West [John A. Macdonald] hailed, which had been rendered fertile by the energy and perseverance of its inhabitants.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear, and laughter.

William Powell [Carleton]—We talked about annexing the Hudson’s Bay Territory, and doubtless he (Mr. Powell) would, as a supporter of the Government, be called upon to vote for a measure to that effect., He believed if we were to credit the statement made in the columns of the Times newspaper that the price was some two millions of pounds. Far better spend the money we had available for the opening up of our country instead of devoting two millions for the purchase of a wild and unexplored region.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear, and laughter.

William Powell [Carleton]—It would certainly, he repeated, be more advisable to improve the Province than to go into a strange region we might never get out of.

Some Hon. Members—Laughter.

William Powell [Carleton]—The hon. gentleman, in conclusion, went on to say that one of the best and most economical colonization roads that could possibly be constructed would be to open a tow-path along the bank of the unnavigable part of the Ottawa which would thus serve as a means of access for settlers. It was unpatriotic to do anything calculated to retard the settlement of the country; and every man should do all he could to increase its population and promote its prosperity.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear, and cheers.

Archibald McKellar [Kent] said that successive Governments had been to a great extent imposed upon in this matter; and that a very large quantity of the lands were in the hands of the speculators.

Alexander Mackenzie [Lambton] explained the process by which speculators managed to get the lands into their hands.

Archibald McKellar [Kent] argued that it would be better not to spend a cent of money until we had a new policy inaugurated which would give to the country the benefit of the expenditure.

Arthur Rankin [Essex] reviewed the progress of settlement in the district of Algoma, remarking that the people were cut off, for want of roads, from communication with the older and more settled parts of Canada. New roads ought to be opened up to Algoma. If we could adopt any liberal policy, opening up great public works, our people would not have occasion to leave the country to find lucrative employment in the States, for it was a mistake to suppose our young men were attracted thither by the desire to settle on free lands, their object being merely to earn good wages as artizans, and so forth. He thought good roads could be built, not including bridges, for from $400 to $500 a mile.

John Sandfield Macdonald [Cornwall] denied being opposed to railroads or the opening up of roads in proper localities. But he was opposed to bogus roads. He proceeded to condemn the Government’s policy in regard to emigration and colonization, which had discouraged the settlement of the country, and driven the youth of the country and emigrants to the United States. He recommended the commencement of large public works as best calculated to attract hither emigrants and induce them to settle in the country.

Thomas Ferguson [Simcoe South] said he felt satisfied that it was wrong to expend money in creating long, continuous lines of roads into the country, instead of many branch lines. Who wanted to go one or two hundred miles into the wilderness? He thought that the $156,000 of money voted for colonization purposes in Upper Canada should be usefully expended in that Province, seeing that Lower Canada’s $50,000 a-year was spent within her borders for settlement purposes. He believed the Government would devote Upper Canada’s balance to purposes for and beneficial to that province. The want of intersecting roads in the Muskoka country (Country of Simcoe), had retarded the settlement of the land, and turned people away to other districts.

Now, another cause of difficulty and injury to the farmer was the non-existence of a law restricting the rate of interest on money to a moderate and fair amount. The impossibility of procuring money at reasonable rates of interest did more to retard the colonization of wild lands of the Province than anything else. He hoped the Government would open side and intersecting roads through the wild lands, and if they determined to do so, means could be taken by the various county councils to prevent extravagant or unfair expenditure of the money devoted to the purpose. He would take care that full value would be given for the money spent in his county.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear.

William McDougall [Lanark North, Provincial Secretary] said it would be well not to discuss this question of the settlement of the wild lands, till Mr. McConkey’s resolutions. He thought the Government’s policy in regard to colonization would be acceptable to the majority of the House. As had been already stated, in regard to Lower Canada, the roads now in progress were to be completed. The Government would then endeavor to have the wild lands in both sections opened up to settlement. The system of running long roads far into the wilderness was not a prudent one. He had had the honor of putting a stop to that system, as regards Upper Canada, some time ago. On the roads beyond the line of settlement the brushwood grew up, the bridges got burned, and the money spent on those portions was virtually thrown away. The $72,000 to the credit of Upper Canada, voted for colonization purposes, accumulated in consequence of the stoppage of the construction of those long roads.

The Government were holding the money to see how it could be best expended. The Government, knowing there was a large amount of good land for settlement in rear of the Georgian Bay, between it and Muskoka. They had sent out surveyors, and roads were being made in that region, and the land was being taken up by settlers as fast as the road makers opened communications through it. Wherever the money could be spent in this way, it was usefully laid out; but to make colonization roads through a broken, rocky country, such as that through which the Hastings Road was made, where there was a little land fit for settlement, was a mere waste of money. A considerable portion of the Upper Canada balance would be swallowed up in the roads now being constructed through tracts of good land. There was not so much in hand as some members imagined. We had shown, however, by introducing those items, that it was the policy of the Government to continue the construction of roads for the colonization of the wild lands of the country. They were taking the measures calculated to ensure a proper expenditure of the money for colonization purposes in places where it would benefit the country.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear.

Thomas Wallbridge [Hastings North] would like to know why the Government came down and asked for fifty thousand dollars more for colonization roads, when it appeared they had not expended the money already voted for that purpose? The annual voting of money, without applying it to the purpose for which it was voted, was trifling with this House.

Thomas Ferguson [Simcoe South] urged the importance as well as the convenience of the Muskoka territory. One could leave Toronto in the morning, reach the territory in question, transact some business, and return to Toronto in the evening. That was the place, most decidedly, to spend money upon.

Alexander Mackenzie [Lambton] was not in favor of the road proposed by the hon. member for Essex (Mr. Rankin) inasmuch as the settlers in the district to which he referred enjoyed a much cheaper, better and more expeditious mode of access over the ice in winter than they could by means of a road. He thought, however, the whole Crown lands system—colonization roads and the sale of lands included—should be reformed throughout. He made no charge whatever against the officials. He supposed they did the best they could to perform their duties under the present system which, however, should be changed without delay.

Antoine-Aimé Dorion [Hochelaga] said that it was at least satisfactory to know that this fifty thousand dollars were not to be doled out in driblets of $200 here and $300 there, and so on. But as we were left under the impression that only large and more important works would be undertaken, it would be only right that it should be stated in the Estimates what roads it was intended to devote this money to. The House was entitled to the information. The House was entitled to the information. It was mot right to vote this money en bloc, thus leaving the Government to distribute the money in accordance with their own views, taking care not to extend their bounty to the constituencies of hon. gentlemen who were opposed to them. This appeared to be their policy, form what we heard in the course of the discussion this evening.

Jean Chapais [Kamouraska, Commissioner of Public Works]—It is not so.

Jean-Baptiste Pouliot [Témiscouata]—It was so in my county.

Some Hon. Members—Laughter and cheers.

George-Étienne Cartier [Montreal East, Attorney-General East] said that the hon. member for Hochelaga (Mr. Dorion) was under a total misconception as to the nature of the language used by the Hon. Commissioner of Public Works [Jean Chapais] and quoted by the hon. member for Temiscouata [Jean-Baptiste Pouliot]. The Hon. Commissioner [Jean Chapais] did not say that colonization grants would not be allowed to the constituencies of hon. gentlemen who opposed the Government. What he did say was that notwithstanding any belief that might be entertained, arising from the hon. Member’s (Mr. Pouliot) political hostility to the Ministry, his constituency would not suffer.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear.

Alonzo Wright [Ottawa County] said that as far as his county was concerned he could safely assert that, for every dollar spent for colonization purposes, by the Government, they had received $20 by the sale of the wild lands. He regretted the discussion had taken this form. Many hon. members seemed to think that the money voted for such purposes was frittered away. Perhaps it was the case in Lower Canada, but it was not the case in Upper. He believed the Government funds should be spent only in townships where there was Government land, and for the purpose of opening it up. He was satisfied that if this sum was spent in opening up the Ottawa country it would be a benefit not only to this section, but to the whole country. We had now 15 or 20 townships on the Gatineau, which section of the country had contributed more to the revenue than any other part of equal extent, in the shape of timber duties. He was happy to learn, from the Hon. Commissioner of Public Works [Jean Chapais], that a change in the Crown lands policy was intended. He (Mr. Wright) trusted it would take place as soon as possible.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear.

The colonization monies were then voted as follows:—

The following items were also voted with little discussion:—

On the next item—$60,000 for Provincial steamers—being called—

Luther Holton [Chateauguay] asked whether it was the intention of the Government to go on with the other items to-night?

George-Étienne Cartier [Montreal East, Attorney-General East] —Yes.

Several Hon. Members—Let us finish the Estimates.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay] protested against the idea of going on at this hour of morning, when there was a comparatively small number of members in the House, and when there was no possibility of the full discussion and explanation going to the country, which it was necessary we should have on this very item.

Alexander Galt [Sherbrooke, Minister of Finance]—We can discuss it now.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay] said it would be most unfair to proceed now with this important matter. He should like to have information.

An Hon. Member—You can have it now.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay] said he should like, in connexion with the Provincial steamers, to know what the Halifax trips cost?—How many passengers?—How much freight? He should like to discuss this speculation of the Government in all its bearings, in connexion with the proposed Confederation with the Lower Provinces. It was important to know the amount and nature of the traffic done. It was equally important to know what the Government proposed to do with the steamers themselves. They might possibly have served the purpose of conveying hon. gentlemen to Charlottetown, but he was not aware that they served any other purpose.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear.

Jean Chapais [Kamouraska, Commissioner of Public Works]—I am ready to give all required information.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear, cheers and counter cheers.

Jean Chapais [Kamouraska, Commissioner of Public Works]—It will take a very short time to do so.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay] said he had no doubt that hon. gentlemen were exceedingly anxious to gloss over these matters at this advanced hour, when there was no chance of their going to the country.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear, and oh, oh.

Jean Chapais [Kamouraska, Commissioner of Public Works]—I am ready to give full information.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay] desired to protest against the attempt of hon. gentlemen to force these items through, when there could not be a full discussion upon them.

Jean Chapais [Kamouraska, Commissioner of Public Works]—I am prepared to tell the hon. gentleman all he wants to know. The revenue derived from the Provincial steamers, during the year, and paid over to the Receiver-General, amounted to $34,630 11 cts.

Some Hon. Members—Cheers.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay]—From the Halifax trips?

Some Hon. Members—Laughter.

Jean Chapais [Kamouraska, Commissioner of Public Works]—No.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay]—The whole revenue, then?

Jean Chapais [Kamouraska, Commissioner of Public Works]—Yes.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay]—How much from the Halifax trips?

Some Hon. Members—Renewed laughter and cheers.

Jean Chapais [Kamouraska, Commissioner of Public Works]—I do not carry the accounts in my pocket.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay]—I should like to know if the Halifax trips were profitable?

George-Étienne Cartier [Montreal East, Attorney-General East]—Yes, the Confederation trip was very profitable.

Some Hon. Members—Laughter.

Jean Chapais [Kamouraska, Commissioner of Public Works]—Besides the actual cash revenue, the steamers were profitable in another way. They carried the mails, and were employed in the gulf and river light-house service. The net profit of the year was estimated at $10,000.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear, and oh, oh.

George-Étienne Cartier [Montreal East, Attorney-General East]—Besides the Confederation trip.

Some Hon. Members—Laughter.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay]—Are we to understand that this revenue goes in diminution of the item of $60,000 charged in the estimates?

Jean Chapais [Kamouraska, Commissioner of Public Works]—Yes.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay] said that was all very well, but he wanted more precise information. We ought to have a return of the number of passengers, the amount and nature of the freight, and the amount derived from each trip. He should like, he repeated, to know all about this Halifax venture of hon. gentlemen which, at its outset, was so much praised from one end of the country to the other. But the fact was that the result was so ridiculous that hon. gentlemen were ashamed of it. Taking, however, the hon. gentleman’s (Mr. Chapais) word that full information would be given to-morrow, he would offer no further opposition to-night.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear.

Jean Chapais [Kamouraska, Commissioner of Public Works]—I shall not give details.

Some Hon. Members—Laughter.

George-Étienne Cartier [Montreal East, Attorney-General East]—You have frightened him.

Some Hon. Members—Renewed laughter.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay] said he was sorry to find that the hon. Commissioner of Public Works [Jean Chapais] had already backed out of his promise.

Antoine-Aimé Dorion [Hochelaga] said he felt somewhat curious to know by what calculations the hon. Commissioner of Public Works [Jean Chapais] had arrived at such a result as to find out that the Provincial steamers had actually netted ten thousand dollars. He should like to have the accounts brought down.

Thomas D’Arcy McGee [Montreal West, Minister of Agriculture and Statistics]—Better have the ten thousand dollars brought down.

Some Hon. Members—Laughter.

Jean Chapais [Kamouraska, Commissioner of Public Works] said he had already stated that it was through the mail service and the light-house service.

Charles Alleyn [Quebec City West] was understood to remark that, in former years, the mail service now performed by the Provincial steamers cost four thousand pounds.

Some Hon. Members—Hear hear.

Jean Chapais [Kamouraska, Commissioner of Public Works] added that the Lady Head cleared on every trip four or five thousand dollars.

After some further conversation the item was carried.

Then came the following—

On the latter item being called—

Luther Holton [Chateauguay] again protested against going on at this advanced hour.

Some Hon. Members—Cries of “go on,” and “adjourn.”

Alexander Galt [Sherbrooke, Minister of Finance]—We can go through the estimates now, and the debate can take place on the concurrence.

George-Étienne Cartier [Montreal East, Attorney-General East]—It is quite early yet.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay] said he wished to make serious charges against the Government—not personal charges, but charges of maladministration. He wished, moreover, to obtain full information from hon. gentlemen opposite, and to have a thorough discussion.

Alexander Galt [Sherbrooke, Minister of Finance]—We are quite ready to give information now.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear, and “go on.”

Luther Holton [Chateauguay] said he did not hesitate to remark that he would wish this matter to go to the country, which it could not possibly do at this hour in the morning.

Alexander Galt [Sherbrooke, Minister of Finance] observed that discussions of this kind in committee were usually very briefly reported, so that the hon. gentleman had no ground of complaint against the Government.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay] protested most emphatically against going on at this hour. If, however, hon. gentlemen persisted in doing so—if they were resolved to hurry this thing through and stifle discussion—then all he had to say was, let the responsibility rest upon them.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear.

In reply to Antoine-Aimé Dorion [Hochelaga]—

Alexander Galt [Sherbrooke, Minister of Finance] proceeded to give explanations. The Trinity House people, believed that the light-house service could be more conveniently and economically performed if they had a steamboat of their own. They applied, therefore, for permission to obtain a vessel at the public expense, and had received the Government sanction to buy one at $4,800. Not being able to get the boat first wanted, they afterwards bought one from Hon. Mr. Renaud, at $9,000. They were asked for explanations, and answered that they thought the permission granted would justify their incurring this larger expenditure, and that if they were considered to blame, they would be responsible to the Government for the difference. The matter was under consideration of the Government, which had, as yet, taken no action.

Antoine-Aimé Dorion [Hochelaga] said that this would be an expensive way of having the light-house and other river business done. The Government employés who had been engaged in laying the buoys were best qualified for performing the Trinity House work. This item was larger than usual, and much of it might have been saved by having the light-house work done by Government boats as before.

Considerable discussion took place. Finally the item was carried.

On this item being called—

Frederick Haultain [Peterborough] enquired whether it was the intention of the Government to introduce a bill on this subject?

Alexander Galt [Sherbrooke, Minister of Finance] said he believed his hon. friend the Provincial Secretary (Hon. Mr. McDougall) had a bill in relation to this subject which would either be brought in on this or in the other House.

The following items were passed, after considerable discussion:

In reference to the latter items, in reply to an enquiry by Luther Holton [Chateauguay]—

William McDougall [Lanark North, Provincial Secretary] said the whole subject had been under the consideration of the Government, and very carefully examined. He had drawn up a report which was submitted to the Government. The proposition was to the effect that the whole of the Government printing should be done in an establishment under their control. This was the system in the United States, France, and other continental countries, where it was found to work well.

Both items were carried, as were the following:—

Alexander Galt [Sherbrooke, Minister of Finance] said he did not propose to take up the deferred items of the ordinary estimates now. He would, therefore, move that the Committee rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again on Thursday, at the first sitting of the House. He might state it was intention to take up the deferred items, before proceeding with the supplementary estimates.

The Committee then rose, reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Thursday.

The House then—at a quarter to three a.m.—adjourned.

[1] This should read Commissioner of Public Works.

[2] Should read Public Works.

[3] Should read Public Works