Document Information

Date: 1864-05-27
By: Province of Canada (Parliament)
Citation: Province of Canada, Parliament, Scrapbook Debates, 8th Parl, 2nd Sess, 1864 at 163-165.
Other formats: Click here to view the original document (PDF).

 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

FRIDAY, May 27th, 1864

[…]

Antoine-Aimé Dorion [Hochelaga] said that the Government had promised that explanations would be given to-day with regard to several items, and among others with respect to the Militia Estimate, and it was upon this express understanding that hon. gentlemen on this side had consented to withdraw the amendment they had moved.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear.

Antoine-Aimé Dorion [Hochelaga] now called upon the Government to redeem the pledge they had given, and make the promised explanations.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear.

Alexander Galt [Sherbrooke, Minister of Finance] said that the House should necessarily take up the order of the day first, and dispose of it. The other items to which the hon. gentleman (Mr. Dorion) referred, could be taken up afterwards. There was no pressing urgency to justify us in departing from the regular order to take up those items, inasmuch as they must necessarily come up again, and as it was far more important that the matter now before the House should be first settled.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay] said he had no desire whatever to postpone his motion in amendment relative to the stamp duties; but he believed we should first have the benefit of the explanations which had been promised, so that afterwards, during the general debate which would arise on his (Mr. Holton’s) motion, it could be shewn that a saving might have been effected by striking out some of these items which appeared in the estimates.

Alexander Galt [Sherbrooke, Minister of Finance]—How did you propose to shew this on Wednesday last?

Some Hon. Members—Laughter and cheers.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay] said that this was an incident of the hon. gentleman’s (Mr. Galt’s) own order of proceedings.

Some Hon. Members— Hear, hear.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay]—It did not in any way affect the ground he (Mr. Holton) took with regard to the proposed stamp-duties. The explanations with respect to the items to which his hon. friend from Hochelaga (Mr. Dorion) alluded had been distinctly promised by the Government, and should be given.

George-Étienne Cartier [Montreal East, Attorney-General East] said that in promising to give explanations on Friday, they of course intended to do so on the earliest possible day—on the next Government day in fact. There was nothing, however, to justify hon. gentlemen opposite in calling upon them to postpone the other business and go into these explanations. The best answer to the pretensions of these hon. gentlemen was the reply which the hon. Finance Minister [Alexander Galt] had given on Wednesday night, to the question of the hon. member for Chateauguay [Luther Holton], when he asked what would be the order of business to-day.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear.

Antoine-Aimé Dorion [Hochelaga] said that hon. gentlemen opposite could not deny that there was an understanding that the information alluded to with regard to these items would be given to-day. It was on an express understanding to this effect, and at the earnest request of hon. gentlemen on the Treasury benches, that hon. gentlemen on the opposition side had consented to withdraw their amendments.

John Sandfield Macdonald [Cornwall] said he was not personally acquainted with what had taken place; but, as he understood it, there was a discussion on Wednesday evening on the Militia items.

Several Voices—And on other questions.

John A. Macdonald [Kingston, Attorney-General West]—There was a discussion on the Militia estimate which occupied some time on Wednesday evening, during which the hon. Finance Minister [Alexander Galt] said that the late Government had consented to pay a certain sum to Class A. of the Volunteers. On this statement being disputed, the hon. gentleman asked members opposite to postpone the discussion and vote till the next Government day, to allow of proof being produced.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay]—Till Friday?

John A. Macdonald [Kingston, Attorney-General West]—Well, till Friday, or next Government day. Well, the hon. gentlemen opposite could not, in fairness, reject that proposition. The proposition to postpone the matter till such time as evidence as to the late Government having assented to the payment in question could be produced, on the first Government day, could not, in common fairness, be rejected. But, if the Government chose to take up other items which they considered of more importance on this occasion, could they be reasonably charged with a breach of faith? Surely there was no breach of faith in this.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear.

John A. Macdonald [Kingston, Attorney-General West]—It was a matter of common occurrence in England for Ministers to postpone the consideration of items which were not considered of as much importance as others, or expedient to be gone on with at the time. The hon. member for Chateauguay [Luther Holton] could not be aware of the value of the language he used when he described the course of the Government in this matter as a “breach of faith.”

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay] reiterated the charge of breach of faith, and condemned the course of the Government in the present instance.

Alexander Galt [Sherbrooke, Minister of Finance] said that if it was really true that the Government had given any such direct pledge, that they would give the information on these items before proceeding with the other business, how was it that the hon. member for Chateauguay (Mr. Holton) had asked, at twelve o’clock on Wednesday night, what business would be proceeded with today?

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear.

Alexander Galt [Sherbrooke, Minister of Finance]—The Government said that they would be ready to give certain information on Friday, and they were quite ready to do so.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear.

Alexander Galt [Sherbrooke, Minister of Finance]—There was no breach of faith whatever involved on the part of the Government.

John Rose [Montreal Centre] considered that the Government would be obliged to give the information which had been promised, only before they pressed for concurrence in the items to which these items referred, but not at the present moment.

The debate still continued for a considerable length of time, assertions on one side being followed by contradictions on the other, and, for some time, the discussion was monotonous in the extreme. Finally—

Alexander Galt [Sherbrooke, Minister of Finance] said he was prepared to redeem the pledge entered into by the Government on Wednesday night, respecting the production of evidence that the late Government committed itself to pay class A of the Militia the amount now brought down in the estimates. But he would take his own time, and would not allow himself to be driven out of what he considered his proper course on account of the attacks of the hon. gentlemen opposite.—The hon. gentleman was proceeding to answer the remarks of the late Commissioner of Crown Lands [William McDougall], and to state the ground upon which he thought the late Government should be considered to have committed itself to the militia item in question, when

Luther Holton [Chateauguay] rose to a question of order, and to ascertain whether the hon. gentleman was going to make statements on a question to which the Opposition would have the opportunity of replying.

Alexander Galt [Sherbrooke, Minister of Finance] wished to reply to the remark of the hon. member for North Wellington [Thomas Parker]. The discussion was probably irregular, but it was raised by the hon. member for Chateauguay [Luther Holton] himself. The irregularity had arisen from the other side of the House.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear, and Opposition denials.

In reply to an interruption and disclaimer from the member for Hochelaga [Antoine-Aimé Dorion],

Alexander Galt [Sherbrooke, Minister of Finance] unhesitatingly denied the habit of imparting to hon. gentlemen opposite the making of untrue statements, as charged against him. He had risen in regard to the statements on Wednesday night, with reference to the extent to which the late Government were compromised in regard to this militia question.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay]—That is not the matter before the House.

(Confusion.)

Alexander Galt [Sherbrooke, Minister of Finance] said the hon. gentleman had complained of his (Mr. Galt’s) not having given information, while he now wished to close his lips.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear.

Oliver Mowat [Ontario South], in indignant terms, imputed bad faith to the hon. gentlemen on the Treasury benches, argued that the Opposition view as to the understanding on Wednesday was the correct one, and should be carried out, and contended that the hon. Finance Minister [Alexander Galt] had no right now to make an ex parte statement, to which members on the other side would have no power to reply. If there was anything binding in honor of conscience—

Joseph Bellerose [Laval] now rose to a question of order.

The Speaker—The whole discussion is out of order.

Some Hon. Members—Hear, hear.

Luther Holton [Chateauguay] rose to speak on the question of order, being of opinion that the remarks made from his side had a connexion with the first order of the day, which had previously been called.

Joseph Cauchon [Montmorency] rose to a question of order, and proceeded to answer the last speaker, when a general cry of “Order” and “Chair” arose from the Opposition benches, completely drowning the Speaker’s voice.

After considerable noise and confusion,

The Speaker said—The whole discussion, from beginning to end, is out of order.

After some further remarks from Hon. Messrs. Holton and Galt, the matter dropped, and the order of the day was taken up.