758. I suppo.se it is nik to be doubted that when n large district of countr)
becomes populous, there is then an influence upon climate i — I have not seen
it ; from my experience it is not so ; I think the climate of Canada is as severe
as it has been at any time during the 37 years for which I have knov n the
country.

7-,9. And tliat is true even with respect to the most settled and the most
densely peopled parts of the country r — Yes.

7^)0. Taking the case of the country to the west of the Rocky Mountains, ]
iinilerstand you to have described Vancouver’s Island as upon the wholo favour-
ably circumstanced with respect to clii.iute ? — 1 (Id not speak to ^ la .iver’s
Island ; I have never been there, except touching the northern j; \rt (vf the
island in a steamer; the weather was unfavourable and I could not examine
the island,

7(11. Taking the coast opposite to Vancouver’s Island, is it h’ss favourably
situated than Vancouver’s Island ? — It is so ; it is rugged ; it is omy the southern
end of Vancouver’s Island that is favouraljlc for settlement ; the northern
jiart is exceedingly rugged, of tht; same character as the opposite mainland
coast.

7()2. Take the coast opposite tlie southern end of Vancouver’s Island ; it has
a south-western aspect, has it not ? — llie southern jjurt of the nminland has.

763. Is that as favourably circumstanced as Vancouver’s Island itself? —
I think not; it is not so favourable as the southern part of Vancouver’s
Island.

7(i4. AVhat is it that makes the portion of the mainlnnd opposite the southern
part of Vancouver’s Island less favourable for seltiemeii .an the island itself;
— That portion in IJritish territory is exceedingly rafiycd and mounUunous,
<;raggy, and there is a want of soil. 7(1,'). Is the mainland side of the channel there rugged, and the island side of the channel open and favourable, or are both .ides rugged ? — The island is less rugged than the niaiidnnd at the northern eiul of the island. 7()(). I am now speaking of the soutiiern viitl of the island and of the land • ward sid&of it ? — The Anurican side of the ehaimel is tlie same character of country. 707. Rugged ? — No, ojMin. 7('<8. What is tlie character of the maiidand o])posite tliat open country on Ihe landward side of tlie .southern end of tlie i.slaiid .' Tlie same character ; open. 7(>‘.). Mr. Edward Ellicc] That is not Hritish territory ? — No ; that is
Auierican ti-rritory ; that is south of 4!)”.

770. Mr. Gladst’ine.\ Take it north of 49″, between Fraser River and the water?
—North of 49″, north of Fraser River, the country is exceedingly rugged.

0.2 j. F4 771- I know

I

f

48

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Sir G. Simptim. 771. I know that your own experience and authority are very great; but do

you think that the opinion which you have given of the climate of this territory

a6 February 1857. jg the general opinion? — I think so ; at least it is my opinion, and I believe it
is the general opinion.

772. Mr. Gordon.] If I understand you rightly, you think that no portion of
Rupert’s Land is favourable for settlement, but that some portions might be
settled ? — Yes.

773. In your very interesting work of a “Journey Round the World,” I find
at page 45 of the first volume this description of the country between the
Lake of the Woods and the Rainy Lake : ” From Fort I’rances downwards, a
stretch of nearly 100 miles, it is not interrupted by a single impediment, while
yet the current is not strong enough materially to retard an ascending traveller.
Nor are the banks le jS favourable to agriculture than the waters themselves to
navigation, resembling, in some measure, those of the Thames near Richmond.
From the very brink of the river there rises a gentle slope of greensward,
crowned in many places with a plentiful growth of birch, poplar, beech, elm,
and oak. Is it too much for the eye of philanthropy to discern through the
vista of futurity this noble stream, connecting, as it does, the fertile shores of
two spacious lakes, with crowded steamboats on its bo=oin and jjopulous towns
on its borders:” I suppose you consider that district favourable for population?
— The right bank of t\\s river is favourable, with good cultivation ; that is to say,
the soil is favourable ; the climate is not ; the back country is a deep morass,
r.nd never can bf drained, in my opinion.

774. Do you see any reason to alter the opinion which you have there
expressed ? —I do see that I bave overrated the importance of the country as
a country for settlement.

77). Chairman.’] It is too glowing a description, you think ?^ExactIy so ; it
is exceedingly beautiful; the bank js beautifully wooded, and the stream is
very beautiful.

77r>. Mr. GladntoiK.] What is the character of the Saskatchewan, or of any
of the principal branches of it as a stream, with regard to navigation ? —There
are several long rapids in the Saskatchewan, at various points. I think a
steamboat might, with the exception of those rapids, or by cutting canals round
those rapids, ascend to Edmonton.

777. Ihat is oil the northern Saskatchewan ? — It is.

778. What would you say of the southern Saskatchewan ? — On the southern
Saskatchewan there are fewer rapids.

77y. Are there long reaches which are wholly without rapids ?— Yes.

780. With a depth ample for navigation: — 1 here are chains of rapids below
the junction of the two rivers.

781, At Nepeeween? — Yes; there are two very long chains of rapids; lO
miles at one place, and seven or eight miles at another.

78J. Are there any long stretches of wator of navigable depth, without
rapids, upon the branches of the Saskatchewan ?— Yes.

7S3. What is the longest stretch that you can remember: — Perhaps 50 or
CO miles.

784. Mr. Grogai/.] Is it to be understood, then, that except for those rapids
the northern branch would be navigable for steamers, aa you describe, up to
Edmonton ? — Yes .; at the junction with Lake Winnipeg there is a very long
rapid called the orand Rapid.

78.”,. \\ hat may be the length of it ?— From two to three miles

78(1. Those three rapids which you have pointed out would be the three
obstacles to the navigation ? — There are several other smaller rapids ; there are
a great many rapids, but those are the priu’ipul rapids.

787. Those are the rapids which you think would require expense to obviate
them ? — Yes.

788. .Supposing that that expense should be incurred, and a canal, as you
have suggested, sh>;ul(l be formed, would any didiculties of a seiious character,
sufficient to impede navigation, exist between Lake Winnipeg and Edmonton :
— In the s;)ring of the year the water of the whole river is exceedingly low ;
I nave come down in a perfectly liijht boat, and we have been frequently under
the necessity of getting out of the boat to hand it over shoal water.

781). Before the snow has melted: — Before the mountain snuw has come

down,

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON’S BAY COMPANY. 49

doVvn, namely, from about the 10th to the 15th of May ; then about the 1st of
June the mountain snows melt, and there is a freshet in the river.

790. From the 1st of June to what time would the navigation of the river
continue good? — Until the month of September tolerably good; the water
falling off about the middle of July.

791. On the southern branch of the Saskatchewan to what extent would it
be navigable, supposing those improvements were effected ? — I cannot apeak so
distinctly with regard to the southern branch; I have merely seen it in
parts ; I have not gone up the southern branch to any great distance. There
is no timber on the southern branch, and there is very little timber on the
northern branch.

792. There have been no attempts, I suppose, to eflfect those improvements?
—None at all ; there is no commerce to justify any outlay.

793. What is the distance from the southern part of Lake Winnipeg to Fort
William on Lake Superior ? — About 500 miles, I think ; from Lake Superior to
Lake Winnipeg is about 500 miles of bad canoe navigation with 66 portages,
varying in length from 100 yards to 3J miles,

794. Do you know a gentleman of the name of Captain Kennedy who made
a speech at a meeting of the Toronto Board of Trade ?— I do.

795. He states there that the distance would not exceed 200 miles 5 — Yes j
he does not know the country ; he never was in the country.

796. What may be the state of the river going through Rainy Lake and from
the Lake of the Woods down to Fort William ; is it navigable for boats, or rafts,
or anything? — Between the Rainy Lake and Fort William it is navigable only
by canoes ; I have passed through that country about forty times ; it is passed
only by canoes, and in many places with very great difficulty.

797. Is that from want of water r — From want of water and shoals in the
navigation, and the wretched character of ♦he country altogether ; many of the
rivers are embarrassed with timber constantly falling every year ; there is one
river which is one continuous mass of timber, requiring to be removed every
season.

798. Mr. Edward EUice.] Is that what is called the Savanne portage ?— Yes ;
that is a river from the Savanne portage to Mille Lac.

799. Mr. Grogan.} Do you consider that obstruction so material as to impede
the navigation of that river f — Yes.

8no. Could not it be removed ? — It could not ; in the autumn of the year, or
rather in the month of August, I have been obliged to get out of a Ught canoe
and wade in the water, handing the canoe along this river.

80 1 . Has any attempt evev been made to remove those obstructions ? — ^The
obstructions are removed ei ery season, so as to enable the canoes to pass.

802. You mentioned, with regard to the Red River Settlement, that the
climate was so unfavourable for the growth of cuin, and that there wa.s so much
uncei-tainty as to the ripening of the corn, that at times you were obliged to
import corn for the supply of the residents there ? — We imported corn some
years ago ; there was a failure of the crops; I was apprehensive of famine^
and imported flour from St. Paul’s in the Minesota territory, and from
Canada.

803. Is that an exceptional case, or does it occur every year ? — It does not
occur every year ; it is an exceptional case ; but the crops very frequently fail.
We have been obhged to send for seed grain ; we have not had sufficient grain
to sow the ground in the following seasun.

804. Can you say, during the 37 years that you have been Governor, how
often you have been under the necessity of importing corn for the supply of
the people at the Red River Settlement ? — We had never imported any large
quantity of grain for the support of the people until that season, in the year
1847, I think ; but the crops have been entirely destroyed, from the country
having been overflowed with water. The country was entirely overflowed with
water in the year 1 826 ; the habitations were swept away, and the people were
oblig’ed to remove to high grounds for the purpose of saving themselves.

805. Am I to understand that the occasion to which you refer was an entirely
exceptional one, and owing to the flooding of the water?— It did not arise on
that occasion from the flooding of the water, but from an apprehended scarcity
ovviiipr to the presence of troops. In 1836 the country was flooded and the

O’^.c Q crops

Sir 0. Simpten.
86 February 1857.

I 1-

50

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

II « «

Sir O. Si«npio». crops were destroyed. Several years previously to that the crops were

destroyed three years in succession by locusts ; myriads of locusts ate up every

86 February 1857. particle of grass.

806. In what year was that ?— In the years 1818, 1819, and 1820.

807. You have mentioned one instance in which corn was imported in some
quantities, you say not considerable f — Flour was imported.

808. For the supply of the inhabitants at the Red River Settlement ? — Yes.

809. Is that the only instance ? — That is the only instance where we have
imported ; it was especially for the garrison. We had a wing of a regiment
there, and were apprehensive that the crops would be insufficient for their
maintenance.

810. In other years has there been a sufficiency of com grown in that district
in general for the supply of the locality? — Certainly not; two- thirds or fully
half of the population live by hunting and fishing.

811. Are the settlers there encouraged in regard to hunting and fishing
pursuits generally, to follow those pursuits rather – than agriculture ? — No ; we
are very anxious that they should follow their agricultural pursuits.

8 1 2. Does the Company purchase their flour ?— Yes.

813. The Company purchase flour at the Red River Settlement, from the
farmers in the neighbourhood? — We purchase all their surplus agricultural
produce.

814. Do you mean that the farmers have no more to sell than what you
purcha.se, or do you only purchase what you want? -They have no more to
sell : they have only 8,000 acres of land under cultivation at the present time,
although the country has been settled upwards of 40 years.

81.5. I suppose it was during the time that you were Governor that a certain
Mr. John M’Lean, who has pubHshed *’ Notes of a Twenty-five Years’ Service
in the Hudson’s Bay Service,” was a servant of the Company ? — Yes, he was so
a part of ths time.

816. I will read you an extract as taken from his book, and you can say how
far it is correct. *’ A single Scotch farmer,” says Mr. M’Clean, ” could be
found in the colony able alone to supply the greater part of the produce the
Company require ; there is one in fact who offered to do it ; if a sure market
were secure*! to the colonists of Red River they would speedily become the
wealthiest yeomanry in the world ; their bams and granaries are always fuU to
overflowing ; ih.e Company purchase from six to eight bushels of wheat from
each farmer, at the rate of 3 s. per bushel, and the sum total of their yearly
purchases from the whole settlement amounts to 600 cwts. flour, first and
second qualities; 3’> bushels rough barley; 10 half-firki;)s butter, 28 lbs. each;
10 bushels Indian corn ; 200 cwts. best kiln-dried flour ; firkins butter, 56 lbs.
each ; 240 lbs. cheese ; 60 hams. Where he (the Red River farmer) finds a sure
market for the remainder of his produce. Heaven only knows, I do not ; this
much, however, I do know, that the incomparable advantages this delightful
country possesses are not only in a great measure lost to the inhabitants, but
also the world, so long as it remains under the dominion of its fur-trading
rulers.” Do you agree in the comment of Mr. M’Clean there ? — Certainly not.

817. In point of fact, do the Company purchase from the farmers settled in
the neighbourhood of the Red River Settlement, all the corn the farmers are
able to sell ? — We are not able to get the quantity of corn to he held in depot
that we requirf. I have written over and over again to the person in charge, to
get all the gra he could for tlie purpose of being held in depot, and we can
never get our ((uantity.

818. Mr. Gordon.’] Will you allov; me to remind you of one other sentence
in your interesting work. It is ut page 55 of volume 1; “The soil of Red
River Settlement is a black momd of considerable depth, which, when first
tilled, produces extraordinary crops, as much, on some occasions, as 40 returns
of wheat ; and even after 20 successive years of cultivation, without the relief
of manure or of fallow, or of green CDp, it still yields from 15 to 25 bushels an
acre. The wheat produced is plump and heavy ; there are also large quantities
of grain of all kinds, besides beef, mutton, pork, butter, cheese, and wool in
abundance.” Do you adhere to that statement ? — I do.

819. And yet yon think it unfavourable for cultivation? — Yes. I there
referred to merely a few small alluvial points occupied by the Scotch farmers.

820. Mr.

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON’S BAY COMPANY. 51

820. Mr. Adderlei/.li What is the nature of the wood growing in the woody Sir G. Simpson.
district r — There lias been elm at Red River. It is now quite denuded of wood

about the Red River Settlement by fire. “^ February 1857.

821. I refer to the higher part about James’s Bay ; what is the nature of the
wood there ?- Small stunted pines.

822. What is the highest latitude at which fine timber grows ? — I cannot
tell precisely ; there is very little timber on the shores of the Bay to the north,
100 miles north of Churchill. On tlie eastern side of the Bay there is very
little timber north of Big River, or Fort George on James’s Bay.

823. When you get to those fine elm forests, is it not very fine timber ? —
That is in the prairie country. There was some very good timber about Red
River at one time.

824. Is the natural wild growth of the prairie country good ? — In some
parts.

82,5. Is it very luxuriant r — In some ))arts ; in other parts the soil is exceed-
ingly thin, and there is very little herbage.

826. M hat should prevent cultivated produce growing equally luxuriantly
on the same spot ? — Immediately behind Red River, about a mile from the
banks of the river, there is merely a thin skin of soil.

827. Is there any luxuriant herbage, either grass, herbs, or fruit of any kind,
at a greater distance from the river than you have mentioned ? — I think not,
except in detached spots. There has never been any cultivation a mile from
the river.

828. Would not many of the impediments which you have alluded to be
got rid of by art and cultivation r — Certainly not.

829. It is impossible ? — It is impossible ; I have paddled over the roofs of
some of the houses in my canoe.

830. Do you say that you never knev.’ any wild country in which the climate
was softened by drainage ? — I have heard of the climate of countries being
improved by drainage, and settlement and cultivation, but I have not experienced
it myself.

83 1 . Are you aware that Europe was once as much frozen as Rupert’s Land
now is ? — I am. not aware that it was ; I have heard of some historical facts.

832. Can you state the present population of Red River, and the increase in
the last 10 years ; — The population of Red River is about 8.000.

833. In what time has it doubled ? — The settlement has been established 40
years.

834. We had a statement from a former witness that, 10 years ago, the
population was 5,000 ; can you state whether that is correct r — It may have
been ; the population is now about 8,000. It is not from natural increase, but
from the migration of some Indians from other parts of the country.

83,5. Is there not always emigration in the shape of a .squatting population
from the United States r — Not from the United States.

836. Wiiere from r — The neighbouring districts ; Indian migration.

837. Should you say that there was much difference between the climate of
Minesota and that of the Red River ? — Decidedly, the further south you go the
better the climate is.

838. And do you state that there is no overflow of population from Minesota
to Red River?— 1 am not aware of any ; I believe two or three Americans
have gone from St. Paul’s, who have seated themselves down as small dealers
and opened shops.

839. Is there any barrier to their doing so from the nature of the Red River
Settknient regulation ? — None.

84(1. Mr. Kimitiird.] Are there not westward from the Red River colony
several hundred miles of level country towards the Rocky Mountains? — Yes, a
very fine country.

841. And comparatively speaking, a railway might easily be made along
there.”— Yes, from the Red River to the Rocky Mountains.

842. How far are the large livers from the Settlement of York navigable up
the int( rior?— ‘Ihey are navigalde by boats from York Factory to Lake Winnipeg;
boats carrying about three tons.

f<43- VNithout mueli portage r — There are a great many portages ; there are from 40 to 4.") portage^*, I think. !>44- C’ouUl they easily be removed r — No.
0.2,-,. G 2 845. Mr.

3*

5a

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Sir G. Simpson. 845. Mr. Edward Ellice.’j I think that at those portages every thing is

literally carried on men’s backs ? — Yes,

a6 February 1857. 846. Mr. Kinnaird.] Did you not, after that interesting extract from your
book, recommend to the Company the establishment of a settlement somewhere
between the Lake of the Woods and the Rainy Lake ? — No ; I suggested that
a missionary establishment might be formed there.

847. Which would attract settlement ? — Merely for the improvement of the
Indian population.

848. You recommended it as a place adapted for a missionary station, which,
in other words, would be adapted for a setlleraent ? — A missionary settlement
would live by fishing in a great degree ; they could not only raise produce
but fish, and give their time and attention to hunting during the winter.

849. Are you not aware that the whole of the manure which is made in tlie
Red River Settlement is wasted, because it is not required for the improvement
of the land, it being so fertile ? — Some improvident, careless people, who know
very little about cultivation, rather than take tiie trouble of collecting their
manure, throw it over the side.

8,50. I believe it is not required? — In some parts it is required; in the low
alluvial points it is not required ; the low alluvial points which are improved
vear by year, or every second or third year, from the overflowing of the river,
require no manure.

”li. Mr. Bell.] What communication is there on the shores of the Saskatch-
ewaii t^^wards Edmonton ; what is the nature of the country r — The country is
level ; it is a rolling prairie.

852. It is a practicable country ? — Yes ; I have travelled on horseback through
the whole of that prairie country. I have travelled from the Red River to the
Columbia on horseback.

853. Mr. Gumey.} I understand you to have spoken of the right bank of the
river of the Rainy Lake ; by the right bank, do you mean the southern bank or
the northern bank ? — Going down the stream ; the north-eastern bank.

854. Going down the stream would be rather i’xe southern bank? — No,
north-east ; the opposite side is south-west, the American bank.

855. Does not that bank belong to the United States ? — No, the right bank
of the Rainy Lake River is British territory ; the river divides the territory ; the
riaht bank, going down the stream from the Rainy Lake to the Lake of the
Woods, is British territory.

856. The opposite bank is American ? — ^Yes.

857. Then the right bank is what would rather be the northern bank on this
map ? — The north-eastern.

858. Opposite the southern part of Vancouver’s Island there is a place on
the maps marked Fort Langley ? — ^That is at the mouth of Fraser River.

859. I believe you mentioned that there was no very good land between
Fraser River and the coast ; but how is the land immediately inland from Fort
Langley, between Fraser River and the iimerican boundary ?— The boundary is
Fraser Iliver, or very nearly so.

860. Mr. Charles Fitzmlluim.] Does nui Fraser River run north and south ?
— I think the boundary is very near Fiaser River, at the mouth of Fraser
River.

8(ii. Mr. Crwrney.] My object was rather to inquire whether Fort Langley
was in any way the centre of a small district of good land ? — No, it is near the
souihern boundary of the British territory.

8()2. What is the character of that district ? — All the way down Fraser River
to within about 50 n^les of Fort Langley, it is an exceedingly rapid river.

863. What is the nature of the land eastward from Fort Langley, inland? —
A short distance to the eastward is level ; there is a mountainous country
higher up the stream.

864. Therefore there is a space of level land immediately inland from Fort
Langley ? — Yes.

865. Is the mouth of the Fraser River at all available as a port or outlet? —
No ; there is a bar at the mouth of the river ; vessels with a small draught of
water would take the ground.

8{)(i. That bar could not be easily removed?— It would fill up again imme-
diately.

807. Mr.

SELECT COMMHTEE ON THE HUDSON’S BAY COMPANY.

53

867. Mr. Charles FUzwilliam.] Do you know what the water on the bar is ? sir Q. Simpion.
— I think about eight or nine feet.

8fi8. Mr. Lowei] Which do you consider the best way to the Red River «6 February 1857.
Settlement from Europe ? — Through the United States, by Minesota.

869. By St. Paul’s?— By St. Paul’s.

870. From Canada, which do you consider the best way ? — By Lake Superior,
Fort William and Rainy Lake, into Lake Winnipeg, and then on the southern
side of Lake Winnipeg.

871. Is that the way you went yourself ? — Forty times I passed over that
ground.

872. Mr. Bell] Is there any other practicable route from Canada to the
Red River :— No other.

873. North of Lake Superior inlaiid? — T’lere is no other practicable route.

874. What has induced you to change your opinion since you wrote that
passage in your journey with regard to the nature of the climate and the soill,
and its applicabiUty for cultivation, because I observe that you had been 20
years in the country when you wrote that passage f — I had never given par-
ticular attention to the climate of the country, nor to the fact of the country
being one continued morass behind, until after my narrative was written ; the
Company have a farm at the outlet of the Rainy Lake at the commencement
of the river, and our crops very frequently fail.

875. Mr. Edward Eltice.] At Red River Settlement, owing to the great
uncertainty of the crops, do not the Company keep two years’ consumption of
grain on hand in case of accident f — Yes, that has been our object ; we never
can get up a stock of grain.

876. With regard to those floods which you have spoken of, are you not
aware th;;t they have happened repeatedly on former occasions ? — Yes ; there
was a flood upon one occasion, a few years previous to 1820, on my flrst
visiting the country. In 1826 the whole country was one continued sea.

877. And in 1848, 1 think f— Yes, about 1850 or 1851 there was another
flood.

878. To give the Committee an idea of those floods, what did the breadth of
the river increase to ? — There was no river ; it was a continued sea for han-
dreds and hundreds of square miles.

879. With regard to the farming at Red River, do you consider it the inte-
rest of the Company to promote agriculture there ‘! — It is very desirable, for
the purpose of furnishing ourselves with the means of living.

880. Have the Company been in the habit of giving encouragement to
agriculture at Red River ? — We have promoted agriculture by every means in
our power.

881. Have the Company established model farms ? — We did establish a model
farm.

8s 2. Have the Company taken out stock on purpose to promote and im-
prove the breeds ? — Yes ; the most improved breeds of cattle and horses and
sheep.

883. You told us about the character of the territory in Rupert’s Land and
in Oregon, but you have said nothing of the character of the land in the part
of Canada occupied by your posts, and more especially the p;;rt between
Sault St. Mary and Fort William ; what is the character of the – imtry on the
north side of Lnke Superior between those points?— It is a very craggy, barreu,
rugged country ; a surface ot ro.ik.

884. Viscount Sandori.] You are well acquainted, I imagine, with the Assi-
niboine branch of the Red River r— \ es.

885. Will you state to the Committer V.ow far it is navigable ? — There are
shoals and rapids at the very coramencvunent of the stream.

886. For what distance ?— From the Forks where it mites with the Red
River, I think about three miles, there is the first rapid ; and 20 or 30 miles
higher up a further liipid, and above that there are very frequent rapids.

887. So that it is in fact unfitted for navigation ? — Qu’tc so.

888. What is the character of the land along the banks of that river ? — The
land is pretty good immediately along the banks.

889. I think the land is cultivable nearly to the sources of the Assiniboin&
River ; immediately upon the banks.

8f)o. That is for a distance of about 150 miles?— Yes.
w.a,’). 3 891. A former

\ -I

54

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

3

•■■»r

i”y

Sir O. K:iiifm. 89 1 . A former witness haj stated that the Americans are extending their
– settlements very rapidly towards the Red River, and that nnmbers have crossed

ao Februair/ i8j7 the boi..i’ ary ; do you imagine thnt fact to be correct? — I am not aware of
any Amorican settlers having crossed the boundary.

892. Would you have ‘he moans of knowing? — Yes, decidedly; I think the
nearest*: settlement nf tl. Americans is at the Crow Wing River, one of the
branches of the Mississipi/i.,

893. Chairman.] How fir is that oif? — I think perhaps 350 to 400 miles.

894. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.] Does the Crow Wing run below St. Peter’s
River or above it ? — It falls into the Mississippi above St. Peter’s; above the
falls of St. Anthony ; the Crow Wing River is above St. Paul’s.

895. Mr Gladstone.] Is St. Paul’s near the junction of th’- St. Pef^s’s with
the Mississippi ? — Yes.

8g(i. Where is the Cro-v Wing? — The Crow Wing is about l(:i> ‘uiles rearev
Red River, I think ; it is not marked on this map,

897. Mr. Kinth’lrd.] Is there not a settlement ut Pembiii;’ ‘ — Yf>. I n;?’! thd
settlement of Pembina an uffshoot from Red Riv:. ; it is i.tiucipuily in!uLiited
by half-breeds from the settlement of Red Kiver.

8y8. It is in the United Sfates territJTV ” — It is ou the frofi.ier.

891). Therefore, in fact, th^n is au ;^ r rican setilciiient nearer than you
have stated ?— No ; I think tiuy are setth-d within the British territory. I am
not aware thai they are cvitside the line.

900. iJoea not Fort Pembina belong to thv Americans V — There is no for?, at
Pembina. Foit Prnbina is an oU trading establishment of the Hudson’s iky
Comp.’ ‘ .

gox. “v)i’. GroqaiT’.] But dots Fort Pembina belong to the Hudson’s Bay
C’^iropai ■ n* to ih»^ Americj.ns? — Fort Pembina did belong to us.
90?. To v.iixnu ;iueh it b;»)ong now ? — There is no Fort Pembina now.

903 1 ini -n the , t tilcment. or the station, or whatever you please to call it ?
— I think thi^ j.’tder.s ar ; upon both sides of the line.

904 Viscount Sand^)/:.] You in.agine that the neiirest American settlement is
on f.he Crow Wing River? — I consider that an American sittlement because there
ts an American population. I consider it the nearest Aaierican settlement.

905. If it was proved that there were American settlers com:ng in consider-
o’ile numbers to the British boundary you would think that a considerable
argument in favour of the goodness of that territory, would you not r — I do not
thii.k they would go to the Red River from the United States or anywhere else
for the purpose cf settlement.

906. I only asked you whether, supposing that was proved, you would not
regard it as a considerable argument in favour of the character of the territory ?
— Yes; but I should not agree in that fact.

907. Mr. Blackburn.] Provided that tliey settled for the purpose of agricul-
ture ?— Ves ; but I am i^itisSed tliat they svill not do so.

908. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.] You say that the north shore of Lake
Superior is banen and rocky ? — It is, except at the outlets of the rivers ; the
general character is rugged and barren, and a surface of rock and water and
swamp.

909. Is there any timber immediately on the shore of Lake Superior’s —
Very little ; scarcely any ; it is all burnt ; it is a burnt wood country.

910. Burnt by what? — By fires having overrun the country ; the greatei
part of the thick-wood country is^ overrun by fires.

911. Of what vood are those the remains ; is it a fir wood? — It is a small

M !

description jf fir.

912. What is the breadth of that belt of timber?
shores of Lake Superior to the shores of Hudson’s Bay.

913. Without any intermission ? — Y’es ; exoopt by laV.
larger surface of water than of land in the whole of th’

914. When y M et from Lake Superior, and ‘^’-ovel
to any country* ‘\ is timbered with majile j ■■’ •
River Kamenii,.- ,.. a falling into Lake Sui)ericr .
I think liiere is a good deal of maple, and per)’.ui»i
have not noticed oak.

-Tt extends from the

. i think there is a

.-wood country.

>., do not you come

soft wood ?- At the

\ViUiam, for 20 miles.

:aiall quantity of oak ; I

915. That

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON’S BAY COMPANY. 55

915. That wood grows on the valley of the Kamenistiquoia ?— Yes ; that is Si r O. Simpfo n.

0)6. 1 do not mean so far to the west as that ; there is a place called the ‘^^ ebruary 1 57.
Pic f_Yes, it is a perfectly barren post ; it is sand upon the beach and rock

017. It is a mineral country, though, is it not? — Yes; all along the eastern
shore of Lake Superior is a mineral country.

p 1 8. There is copper ? — Copper.

910. Andiron? — Yes.

qeo. And the vegetation is pine wood:— Yes.

02 1 . When you go tiirough a belt, say of two miles of that country from the
shores of the lake, do you not then come to a maple and oak vegetation ? —
Certainly not. There may be patches here and there on the banks of the
river of maple, but in a very small quantity.

922. The country rises from the bank of the shore of Lake Superior, does it
not? — Yes ; to the watershed.

923. You come into a country filled with small lakes and morasses ? — Yes.

924. How are those lakes formed ? — They have been lakes from the begin-
ning of time, I believe. These basins are formed by large quantities of snow,
and the morasses are very deep, and the season is not sufficiently long to dry

them up.

q2j. Are there not some artificial reasons for that, as there are on the south
shore of Lake Superior ? — No ; I am not aware of any.

926. Dams of difierent sorts ? — No.

927. Then it is not of the same nature as the shore on the southern side of
Lake Superior ?— I am not aware that the waters are dammed on the southern
shore.

928. With regard to Frase-. River, you said that the country on the main-
land was generally unfavourable for cultivation ? — Yes.

929. But there are farms at Fort Langley, I think ? — There is a farm at Fort
Langley.

930. Mr. Edward EUice.] To what extent ; how many acres ? — Perhaps about
20 acres.

931. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.] But there is plenty of room for more? — ^Yes.

932. C/iahi)ian.] There is some extent of ground there fit for cultivation ? —
Yes, at Fort Langley.

933. Whiit extent should you say ?— Perhaps several hundred square miles.

934. What sort of cultivation ; would it grow wheat ? — It might grow wheat.

935. Is it as good as the southern portion of Vancouver’s Island ‘/—Not so
good, I should think ; it is a more moist climate.

936. It is not so good in point of climate ? — I should think not.

937. Mr- Charles Fitzwilliam.’] Is not the drought at the southern end of
Vancouver’s Island rather a drawback to cultivation in the summer time ? — I
am not able to speak to Vancouver’s Island.

938. Is the country round Fort Langley of the same character as that between
Nisqually and Fraser River?— No, it is a more thick-wood country; from
Nisqun’ly to vt.y nvai Fraser River is a prairie country, with patches of
wood.

939. Or rather a woody country with patches of prairie ? — Yes.

940. Is the country to the north of the British line like the country about
Nisqually ?— No ; it is a thick-wood country.

94′- Still, with small prairies? — No; I think the prairies are not so
fi-equent.

042. Mr. Grogan.] You have described to us the countries as having been
visiti’d by t y b; ••n floons ;, was ‘ii.ire ai^y particular cause, such as an early
spring, 01 V, oUUdfu meicing of the mountain snows, which occasioned it? —
Yes : *1 was severe weu” .t until the season was far advanced, and the sun
burs .a with great power.

;N,i. And this gieal extent of flood was lie overflow of the rivers ?— \es.

944. lo which of the rivers do you jiiincipally attribute the flooding?— It
was -AX over, not only Red River, but ihe whole of ihe country.

945. Generally through the whole district? — Yes, the York River and Moose
River ; ‘:hey ,,ere obliged to get their goods out of the stores and put them on
stages, for the purpose of being saved Irora the liood.

0-25. G 4 946. Then

■*•■

56

\IINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Sir 0. Sitnpiom,

|6 Fabrutrjr 18S7,

wii

ti

ii

more
more

The

946. Then those particular floods were not local, in fact, in the neighbour-
hood of the Red River ? — No.

947. They were general through the country ? —Yes.

948. M’ith regard to the Red River Settlement, was that settlement
damaged or more exposed to flood than any other part ?— It was ; it was
exposed and more injured, because there was a larger population.

949. The Red River discharges itself into Lake Winnipeg ? — Yes.
9.50, Is there any obstruction to the river going into the lake ? — No.
951. Or to the waters o* tV lake finding their way into the sea f — No.

lake was overflowed, which rendered it necessary to remove our establishments
from the lower end of the lake.

953. Would the existence of those 47 portages which you described as on
York River, up to Lake Winnipeg, in any way conduce to damming up the
waters, and flooding the country ? — Lake Winnipeg empties itself into Nelson
River, a little way to the northward.

9.53. Are there any obstructions on that river which would tend to dam up
the waters of Lake Winnipeg?— None at all.

054. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Is it not the general flat nature of the country
wluch causes the flood ? — Yes.

g.’iS- There is not declivity enough to carry off the water ? — Just so.

Mr. Bell.] The same as in the neighbourhood of Lyons, in France?

—Yes.

957.
9.58-
9.19

Mr. Gordon.] When did the last great flood occur? — In 1851.
Mr. Jicll.’] Do you know the neighbourhood of Fort Alexander ? — I do.
What sort of country is it ? — The back country is thick wood country ;
the timber is pine, and there is a great deal of swamp ; it is a swampy country.
9f)0. Mr. Gladstone.] With respect to the wheat at the Red River Settle-
ment, at what period do they sow ? — They sow in ihe early part of May,
I think.

96 J . And when do they reap ? — In ^.ugust.

962. Is the harvest pretty good, or is it overtaken by the winter, without
having sufficient sun to ripen the com? — The crops are usually, or always,
secured before the winter sets ii..

963. From whence did the Hudson’s Bay Company bring the com and other
provisions for ils servants before the Red River settlement was founded ? — Very
little grain was used in the country previously to that time. The provisions
used in transport were pemican, a compound of buffalo meat and tallow ; the
buffalo meat dried upon stages, and ground down, tmd mixed up with the fat of
the animal.

964. Then it was almost entirely animal food ? — Animal food and fish.

965. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Is it not in a great measure so now ? — Yes, in
travelling to the northward.

966. Mr. Gladstone.] Was there no regular import of grain or other vegetable
produce into the Hudson’s Bay territory before the Red RiT*^r Settlement was
founded ? — Merely for the use of the establishments upon the coast, and for the
Indians near thcot «^8tablishment8.

967. From ivlience was that grain brought ? — From England.

968. By the Hudson’s Bay Coiiipany ?— Yes, through Hudson’s Bay.

969. You do not consider that the Hudson’s Bay route is the most economical
or convenient route, in a commercial sense, for connecting the Hudson’s Bay
country with England, do your — No great extent of traffic can be carried on
through Hudson’s Bay, inasmuch as the season is exceedingly short ; the Bay
is never free of ice.

970. How long is it open ? — About f vo months.

97 1 . With regard to the Saskatchewan River, are the banks of it tolerably
timbered ‘: — There is very little timber on the banks of the Saskatchewan.

972. Is there such a deficiency of timber both on the Upper and Lower
Saskatchewan that that of itself would, in your view, constitute a serious
impediment to settlement ? — Decidedly ; throughout the whole of that prairie
country, from parallel 49° northwards, I think the wnt of fuel would be a
great drawback to ittlement.

973. Is not th-. Red River country pretty well timbe r Tt was prett”
v^ell timbered, but people are now under the necessity of :■ U)^ further foi
timber j they go up the river and raft it down 40 or 50 or ao MiiLs.

974. Arc

SELECT COM.vilTTI E ON THE HUDSON’S BAY COMPANY. 5″

[HI , .

974. Are the outfalls of Lake Winnipeg exclusively into Hudson’s Bay ?—
Yes.

97’;. Are there several? — No; the lake empties itself by Nelson Uivc into
the sen.

Entirely .’—Yes.

Mr. Kinnoird.] You say that there is no timber on the Saskatchewan
River? — There is vury little timber.

978. Has any search been made for coal in that district? — Yes; an inferior
description of coal, a lignite, has been found near Edmonton.

97^. Mr. /W/.] You say there is very little timber in that country; I find
that in your Journal of a Journey from the Red River Settlement across the
Rocky .Mountains, you constantly describe the country in this way; “Picturesque
country, iak28 with gently slopin;!;- banks, the greensward crowned with thick
woods; then you say, ” Beautiful country, lofty hills, long valley, sylvan lakes,
briuht green, uninterruj)ted profusion of roses and blue-bells, softest vales,
paiionuna of Imnging coifses.-— Yes, there were a great many flowering
slirubs.

()So. Then you say tliat within a day’s march of Carlton, on the Saskatche-
wan, in lat ‘nde o.T, there were large gardens and fields, and an abundance of
potatoes and otn;’r vegetubles ? — Yes.

96 1. 1 understood you to say that there were no woods in that country? —
There is a very smai’ quantity of wood, insufficient for the purposes of a large
population.

982. About Edmonton, as to the pasturage, your remark is that it is luxuriant,
and that the barley is very productive ? — Yt;s, it is very good.

983. Chalnnan.] Will you state to us the system under which the country is
managed, with regard to trade and government, with reference to the Indian
population ; in short, the machinery which is employed ; how many officers and
servants aitogetlier are emjiloyed by you in the manaf^fement ot the territory
of the Huflson’s Hay Company ? — There is the governor-in- chief, to begin with ;
there are 10 chief factors, who are the principal officers, members of our council ;
^9 chief traders, five surgeons, 87 clerks, and 67 postmasters ; the last rank
between the labouring mnn ani’) or three years previous to IHio tlu-re was
a Lireal mortality iu tlie nortiiern parts ol the romitry, m the tliickwood
country, from small-pox and mea-les; that was in IHk;. 1H17 and IHIH. After
tliat period we introduced vaccine inondation, and the small-pox lias been
unknown in the eoiintry since then.

()(!<)• Since that period, do you believe that the number of the Indians have increasid or decreased ■ -1 think the number of the Indians in the ihickwood country has increased. 1000. Take them ns a whole r -In the prairie country 1 think they have decreased owl n{>; to wars and small |)i)x.

1001. By wars yoi: i.w waii ‘vmon;; tlu-niselves ? — Yes.

1002. Mr. Kdwiirii ii.,/;, • “lioe are the Indians on the I’rontier ? — Yes, the
Blaeklieet tribes , they dve. priiuipally American Indians.

1003. (‘hainii,in.\ What do you mean by the thickwowl rountrv” — The
tliickwood c(iunt!V is a very extensive district of country lying 30 • or4(»() utiles
inland round llu agriculture.

1011. Have they to any extent adopted agriculture ‘-—Not to any material
extent; they Iiave adistate for field labours.

1012. You state that there a.e wars in some parts of the country between
different tribes of Indians .’ — Yes-

101 J. I believe you have managed to preserve peace as between the red man
and yourselves • -Decidedly.

1014. It has been almost enri”ely f eserved? — Yes; for 3′ years, during
which I iiave had the principal i. agement, there have bten very few cases of
crime, considering the cliarac I t’ ■ population and the extent of the

country.

101,5. I b’lieve during the last ..w years there has been a warfare of the most
dreadful de>(‘ri])tion carried on i)etween the inlabitants of the United States in
Oregon and the Indian tribes in that neighbo’irhood .’ — There has been.

10 lb. It lias extended to your frontier, has it not r — Yes.

11117. But has never passed t’lat Irontier f — It has not gone bevond ; we have
sufficient intiuence with the Indians in the Bri’ish territory west of the mountains
to keep them out of it.

U18. Ill

SELI.CT (OM.MITTKK ON Till: HTDSON’S BAY COMPANY. 59

iiiiS. In what way is justice luiniinistered in tli t country which is under Sit G. Simpmi.

your control • — As ticurly us possible according to ilie laws of England; we

liavc a very conij)etent legal officer, who tills the otiice of recorder at Red River ^^ February 1857,
Sett lenient.

1(11(1. Supposing uu outrattc takes place in a distant part of th( country,
wliat happens .’— The ease wouhl be tin probably at Hed Hiver or at Norwiiy
House.

Kjjo. How can that l>e done ; when . murder, tor instance, takes place in a
very distant part of the country, what is men done ‘f — In one case three parties
«h() were concerned ir. n murder were removed to Canada for trial, all the way
Iroiii .Mackenzie’s River, at great dithculty and j;reat expense.

loji I suppose in very distant parts of the country yo’i administer justice as
best vou may .- — In many instances we have brought cases to Red Hiver, where
the parties have been regularly tried by jury.

K’jj. I’or miiiiir oti’ences what iiroeeedings do you adopt practically: —
‘J he ludiiin is reprimanded and held in disfavour for some time.

102.’,. \\r. Kdwaid Ellkc] Will you illustrate that answer by giving a case
which ociurred at Norway House recently .’ — Some Indian lads broke into one
of our stores and they were regularly tried, and two of them were transported
from their own district 300 miles off to another district; that was the entire
punishment ; it was in fuct, no punishment ; they were also severely repri-
manded.

1024. C’/i(iinn.ea ‘ — We have only rented the part between Fort Simpson
and Crocs Sound.

lojo. \ hat is the date of that arrimgeinent .’ — That arrangement,! think,
was entered into about 1839.

1031. What are the terms upon which it was m-xde ; do you pav a rent for
that land ? — The British territory runs along- inland from the coast about 30
miles; the Russian territory runs along the coast, we have the right of navi-
gation through the rivers to hunt the interior country. A misunderstanding
existed upon that point in the first instance ; we were about to S!>iabll — We have the entire care of it.

O’-^j- H 2 1035. Mr,

f >>’]

1%

do

MINl’TRS OF FAinENCF TAKEN IJKFOUE TlIK

5! I’

Mm

•ii

i^’it O. Simpton. 1035. Mr. Kduuird Kllicc] That waH inniiuaincd tliroiij^li the last war, was

it not, in order tliot there tilioiild be no dititurbaiice ainon^; the Indiana l —

Hi February 1857. Yes.

1036. C/iainiitm.] Was any inconvenience sustained before this irmnp;emcnt
was made with regard to tlie nianageniciit of the Indians, inai^muc*’ us it V\’u8
found that spirits were introduced amoni; then) by |mrtieH coniprtriir witli one
anotiier for tiie fur trade: — Yes, tliere wa» a great abus. il s|u>’tuoiu
liquors.

1037. Was that the main inducement to you and to the Russian Company
to make this arranj^ement •— It was not tlie principal inducement, but it was
one of the imhicenu-nts. A yearor1^V(» afterwards I entered into an arrangement
at Hitka witii the (iovtinor of Sitka that the use of spirituous licpiors siiouUl he
entirely prohibited. A murdemus scene took place under our own eyes at Sitka,
arising’ fiom a deliaucli aimmi; the Indians, and we came to an agreement then
tlint liquor should no longi r be introduced into the country.

io;;S. Mr. Kiiniaird.] litis tiiat agreement been rigidly kept on their part? —
It has been rigidly kept, I believe, by them as well as by us.

1031). Mr. Gordon.^ A\’ith regard to the administration of justice, is it not
the case that under tlie Acts by which the Company exercise jurisdiction, viz.,
the 43 Geo. ‘,), and the 1 & ‘1 (Jc o. 4. the Company are bound, under a penalty
of 5,000/., to transmit caves of felony for trial to ( anada .’ — The ex-recorder of
Rupert’s Land will be here in the course of a day or two, and I should rather
prefer that he should answer the question, and explain all matters connected
with the administration of the law.

1040. I suppose you would also wish to defer till the recorder is here, the
answer to the next cpiestion which I should put, viz., how ofttn that had been
done ? — There have only been two cases transmitted to Canada in my time ; one
is the case of those Indians in Mackenzie’s Hiver, a few years ago, of whom I
spoke.

1041. How long has> there been a recorder established at the Red River? —
In 1839 the lirst recorder was appointed there.

104a. Mr. Grogaii.] What was the name of the recorder in 1839 ? — Adam
Thorn.

1043. Mr. dordvii.’] How was justice administered previously to a recorder
being apjiointed • — There was never a criminal case within my recollection
previously to \^IM), except the case to which I am alluding, in Mackenzie’s
River.

1044. With regnrd to the introduction of spirits into the territory; arc spirits
allowed to those who are in the employment of the Company .’ — I may say that
the whole importation of spirits, from the year 1847 to the year 18.50, averaged
under 5,000 gallons into the whole country.

104.5. Are spirits habitually allowed to be used by the servants in the
employment of the Company ? — Certainly not.

1046. Not for their own use? — Not for their own use ; not. even the officers
in some parts of the country are allowed the use of spirits.

1047. I find it stated in a speech made by .Vlr. (iladstone, on the 10th of
August 1848, that in the year 1837, about 3,800 gallons of spirits had been
imported into the Hudson’s Bay territory ; and in the year l84.j. three years
before the date of his speech, !),0″r) galhms. From the statement which you
have just made, 1 suppose we must conclude that that proportion has diminished
a good deal ? — In 1845 the quantity was increased, in consequence of a wing of
the sixth regiment having been .^ent to Red River ; it was for the use of the
troops.

1048. Then we must not take that as reijr^senting an increase or decrease in
the consumption ? — No; the average since 1847 is 4,911 gallons, it is under
5 0(10. Of that quantity, two-thirds are used by the 8,000 inhabitants of Red
River; tlie icrr-::ining one-third, or 1,630 gallons, is all that is allotted for the
use of our own servants, for an occasional dram to Indians who are employed in
transport with our own servants, and for the purchase of provisions in parts of
the country where we cannot get thmn otherwi-e.

1049. I ^^^ ‘” ‘* re(»ort which wis made by a Committee of the House of
Commons, which was appointed to consider the condition of the aborigines in
tht liritish CJolonies, a statement that the Coppermine Indians had decreased

one-half;

SELECT COMMHTKR ON TFIK IIUDSOWS BAY COMPANY, (ii

nne-liiilf : and unions other cauRcs whicli ure usHimni’d (or tlmt decrease, intern-
oernnci’ is tneniioncd. Ilavi; uiiy Ixit tin* Ci)mpimy’t» traders accuHS to that

Sir G. limpynt.

“ountry? — None, except the (.’uinpany’s truderH ; tjiat Htatoment is not true; no iG Februarj 1837*
li(|aur goes there.

10.50. Mr. Eduard KUirr ] Is it not tho fact tlmt tlint is* one of the districts
into which spirits do not go at all r — No spirituous li(piors havi; been sent north-
ward of Cmnherlund to my knowledge since 1H22.

lo,”;!. Kilher for the Company’s servants or for the Indians’!*— Not for any-
body; ncith«*r for officers, servants, nor Indinns.

lo.V^- Ml’- Ciordun.] Then you presume that the Ci)inmittee of the House of
Commons were misle(I by the evidence before tliL-in ? — Decidedly.

1033, It has been stated to mc by ollicers in the army who have travelled
in those parts of the country where the Company have stations on the Sagucnay
River, at (.’hicoutimi, for instance, that though licpior was not traded with the
Indians for furs, yet at the time the bargain was concluded a certain quantity ot
liijHor was always given to them as n present ; does it appear to you that that
dittcrs in anything but name from making spirits a portion of the trade r — I
1 think it very likely ihat on the St. Lawrence, wjiere we are surrounded by
opposition, that may have occurred. Where we have opposition, we must, in
order to ^! that.

1076. Mr. Gordon.] Was that in the case of a Mr. James Sinclair ? — Yes.

1077. Mr. Edward ICllice.] That was when it was in contemplation to inter-
fere with the fur trade ? — Yes.

1078. Mr. Loive.] Will you state what the case was with respect to .\Ir. James
Sinclair .’—There was some objection.

1 079. What did he want to do ? — We objected to bring out goods for him at
one time.

luSo. What goods did he want you to bring out r — British manufactures.
loSt. You objected on what ground ? — On the ground that he was to employ
thim in the fur trade.

1082. Mr. Kinuaird.] The Company does not oppose a passive hinderance to
the entrance of goods or of people necessLArily ? — Not at ail ; we take their goods
out on freight.

1083. If I wanted to bring a mechanic into the Red River, could I do so ? —
Decidedly ; we should afford him a passage.

1084. Ihen the Company would facilitate the entiance of free labourers of
good character who should present themselves, by giving them a passage; —
On paying.

1085. Allowing them to have the benefit of the Company’s stores upon the

terms

the

Chun

I K

are ?-
of En
of 3(i:
Lawi
Wesk
and at
all42
I K

of Ru

schoo

year.

year.

inissid

Gulfo
1 10

in the
1 10.

—No

many

be ulk
1 10,

loo/, i

0.2.3

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON’S BAY COMPANY. 63

iiderance to

terrii’* of the (4)mpany’s servants ? — No, not on the terms of the Company’s Sir G. Smp$on.
servants ; the Company’s servants r’-neive very low wages.

1086. Yon have told us, I think l.at no other ship would be allowed to trade s6 Febru«ry 1857.
at York? –Yes.

1087. Therefore if I wanted to import a mechanic, you would allow him to
come in your ship r — Decidedly.

,088. .NJight not he trade on the same terms as the Company’s servants ;
inisht not he buy his things in the same way?— He might buy his things as the
juier iniiabitants of Red Uiver do.

1089. And he might have the benefits of the Company’s stores? — Y’es ; our
shops are open to all parties.

luQO. He would have to pay for his passage? — Yes.

loyi. By a ti.\ed tariff r — There is a regular passage money charged, which
I cannot call to memory at this moment. Every facility is afforded ; a passage
has never been refused to any one that I am aware of.

100 2. There is an idea that the Company opposes the settlement of Indians as
agricultural labourers or as a Christian community ?– It is not the ca.se.

iO()3. What IE the tenure of the land in the Company’s territory? — N’ .e
hundred find ninety-nine years.

1094. Is the right of the Indians to sufficient lands for their support recognised?
— Tliey occupy lands wherever they please. The Indian has never been required
to pay lor lands.

109,). Do you pay no chief for the occupation of land yourselves in the Indian
settlement ? — There is a very old respectable chief, a man who has been very
friendly to the whites ; we support him principally.

10(|6. Do you not recognise their holding their possession of land ? — No ; the
land was purchased of thorn, I think, in the time of Lord Selkirk by a regular
purchase ; a certain quantity of ammunition and tobacco, and various other
supplies being given f’r it.

1097. What provision is made, or can be made, for the settlement of such as
desire to become agricultural labourers, or to live as a community ; what would
be the facility given by the Company ?-~They would be permitted to take land-‘,
wherever vacant lands were found, at a price which might be considered nominal ;
the prices are never exacted.

1098. Is the Indian settlement at the Red River approved of and encouraaed
by the Company ? — Decidedly.

io<)9. In every way '—In every way. 1100. What provision is made for the instruction of these 'ndians ? — The Church Missionary .Society have a missionary in charge of the settlement 1 101. Mr. Edward Ellicc] Will you state what religious establishments tiiere are '! — In the Company's territory there are 19 missionary stations of the Church of England, 12 Roman-catholic, 4 Wesleyan, and 1 Presbyterian, making a total of 36. In Oregon theri is a Koman-catholic mission. On the (lulf of St. Lawrence, one. At Albany and Temiscaming, one. At the Pic there is a Wesleyan missionary. At Fort William there is a Uoman -catholic missionary : and at Vancouver's Island there is a Church of England missionary, making in all 42 missionary stations. 1 102. Mr. Ki/waird.] What provision is made for the chaplain ? — The Bishop of Rupert's Land has a salary of 300/. a year from the Company. In aid of schools he has 100/. a vear. The bishop's chaplain, at Red River, has 150/, a year. ,\t York, .'>0/ a year. At Moose, 50/. a year. At East Main, 50/. a
year. At Victoria and V^aucouver’s Island, 200 /. a year. The Roman-catholic
missitm at Red River has 100/. a year. At Oregon, 100/. a year. On the
Gulf of St. Lawrence, 105 /. a year.

1103. Mr. C/iarles Fitiwilliam.] What do you mean by Oregon, Oregon is
in the United States ? — We call it Oregon.

1104. Do you give rt’li::ious instruction to the inhabitants of the United States ?
— No ; fiiere is a Rom.an-catholic bishop who was taken across by us a good
many years ago to Oregon, and he remains there on the promise that he should
be allowed 100/. a year.

iio.’j. Mr. iiiiehurk.] Do you pay him? — We pay him 100/. a year now.

not). And you maintain him in the United States territory f —We give him
1 00 /. a year.

1107. He being in the L’^nited States territory? — lie being in the United
States territory.

0.25- H 4 1108. Mr.

64

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN J5EF0RE THE

1*’

Sir G. Simpson. iioS. Mr. Erlivaid £llice.] You have possessory rights, I believe, under the

tivaty ?— Yes.

«6 February 1857- i,(,p ]\jr. Roebuck.] But has not Oregon been given up by treaty ?— By that
treaty our |)ossPSsory rights nre retained.

1110. What possessory rights have you? — We have various establishments;
pasture grounds ; hunting grounds. We claim very large possessory rights.

nil. .Mr. Edward EUice.] Have vou not also the free navigation of tiie river ?
—Yes.

1112. Mr. Roebuck.] What do yon mean by jiossessory rights ; do you mean
rights under the charter? — Riohts as British subjects previously to the treaty.

1113. Had you possession of land ? — We had possession of lantl.
1 1 “14. How did you acquire it? — Under the licence to trade.

1115. But that is not possession of land ? — Yes, under the licence to trade wt
had various possessions in the country.

in(). Do you understand that a licence to trade gives you possession of the
land ? — We understood so.

1117. That is the interpretation which you give to the words “ariglit to
trade,” tiiat it gives you a right to the land ? — We conceive so.

1118. In fee-simple r — I do not say under wliat tenure, but we consider that
it gives us a right to the land.

1119. So that when you received by charter from the Crown a monopoly to
trade over certain portions of territory, you believe that the whole of that
territory was ceded to you? — No, not the whole of the territory that we trade
over, but the territory that we bring into cultivation.

1120. How much land did you bring into cultivation in Oregon ? — I really
cannot tell.

1121. Did vou hrini’ 100 acres ?– Five thousand acres.
1 1 ■22. Into cultivation ? — 1 es.

1123. And those are all tlic possessory rights which you have?— We have
various establishments all over Oregon ; we have them in various parts of the
Columbia Iliver and I’nget .Sound.

1124. Mr. Edicard E/lice.] Arc you not aware that in addition there is the
Puget Sound Company, wlio also have tliosc rights reserved under tiie treaty ?
— Yes, that is an oti’shoot of the Hudson’s Bay Company ; an agricultural esta-
blislnneiit formed by the Hudson’s Bay Company, or parties connected «ith or
interested in the Hudson’s Bay Company, encouraged by the Government of
the day.

1 12.’). Mr. Kiniuiird.]l gather from your evidence, that in stating the number
of people whom you employ, you do not consider the Indians who hunt for you to
be your servants ; — We do not.

ii2(). Is not the Company pledged to them by payments in advance? —
Decidedly; tluit is to say, an Indian to make his hunt must be provided with
certain neces-^aries to enable him to live during ihe winter ; he requires a gun ;
he requires anununition ; he requires blanketting.

1 127. Are they not to all intents and purposes your own servants hunting for
you, for which you pay them iu advance ? — There is no contract ; there is an
understanding that they will pay us if they can. If the Indian is sick, we lojc
the outfit.

1128. You make him payments in advance ; then you settle with him after the
hunt, and in the event of any illness, or .’^iekness, or of old age, you undertikc
to provide for him ? — We consider that a dead loss.

1 120. What provision do you make for the instruction of these Indians .’ — In
the ditlerent parts of the country favourable for settlement we always encourage
missions; but in many parts of the country it would be impossible to collect any
body of Indians ; the nieans of subsistence are not sufficient to do so

‘130. As the missions extended would you grant assistance ?— Decidedly ;
we are anxious to improve the condition of the Indians.

11,51. What grants in aid are given for the education of the half-breeds and
the Indians ‘i” — We give no grants in aid. Tiie half-breeds are <)uite in a coiidi- tJoM to jiay for tliemselves ; the inhabitants of the country ; the heads ol families. 1 132. And the Indians ? — They are brought to the missions. 1133. In lact, you thin'' they are able to tuke care of themselves, and you make no grants in aid for .-icir education? — No. 1134, The bank bank : to any j)ay th 1 1/ Red and a at (iO ' 114: in teres their "4! your of it; excliisi '1.1 ".0: chief Comp; ".5. now K| the Re the go ur, II 50 mil 1151 fact is 0.2 r, n SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY, (i.5 es a sun ; 1134. The barter of ardent spirits, you said, was never allowed under any Sir G. (:,
circuinstances ? — Never for furs. In the Saskatchewan it is necessary to give

a small ijuantity’ ot spirits to tiie Plain Indians, as an inducement to bring in «6 Febmaiy 1857.
provisions, otherwise they will not do so; these are principally American Indians.
A small ([uantity is likewise given to some of the Indians at the Rainy Lake,
who supply us with dried sturgeon and wild rice.

1 13.5. Have any ordinances or rules been passed by the Council on the sub-
ject of ardent spirits ! — Yes

1 136. Can you put in copies of your rules with respect to ardent spirits ? —
The most ettectual rule is not to introduce the article.

1137. Have you no written minute from the Council? — No, I think not.
There can be very little spirit used, inasmuch as the whole importation is under
5.000 i,’al!ons.

1135. What is the amount of ardent spirits imported in the ships? — Four
thousiuid nine hundred and some odd gallons.

1 131). How is it distributed in the territory? — Two-thirds of that quantity are
for sale to the inhabitants of Red River, who would otherwise distil. We have
had great ditiiculty in prevei/.ing them from establishing distilleries in the
country.

1140. Are tlie Company’s regulations, to your knowledge, violated in that
respect ? — I think not.

1 141. Have any of tlie othcers of the Company been called to account for bar-
tering ardent spirits where it was not necessary ? — No, not that I am aware of.
We ure so decidedly opposed to the use of spirituous liquor in any of our esta-
bhshments that no officer would venture to act in opposition to our desire.

1 14J. I think you said that the government of the country was vested in a
coimoil ? — Yes.

1 143. Are the transactions secret? — Not at all.

1 144. Are minutes kept .’ — Yes.

iH.”). And is it open to the |)ublic ; may anybody have access ? — All criminal
and other legal cases are tried at Red River, and are open to the public. There
was a trial by jury last year at Norway House which was open to the public ;
but our own deliberations with reference to the management of the trade of the
country are not open to the public.

ii4(i. Is there any bank cut there for the use of the servants ; any savings
bank or any place where they can deposit their savings ? — VVe have no savings
bank ; but the Company allo^v the interest of the day, 1 think it is four percent,,
to any parti* s who niiiy choose to leave their money in their hands, or they will
pay their balances, as tliey accrue from year to year, as they may desire.

1147. Is every facility given in that respect at the different posts? — In the
Red River Settlement we have gold, silver, and copper as a circulating medium,
and a puper currency. That jjajjcr currency is redeemable by drafts on London
at 60 days.

1 145. If any of your servants at the different posts wanted to place money at
interest, you would allow them four per cent, upon it r— Iftliey choose to leave
their money in our hands they get four per cent, for it.

1149. Have you it in contemplation to form a savings bank in any part of
your territory?— No; it has never been contem’ lited ; we have never thought
of it; it has never been susigested.

1 i.’jo. Mr. Lowe.] In “horn does the executive power reside ; in the governor
exclusively ? — The governor and his council.

M.’ii. The Council of Factors ? — Yis.

11,52. Consisting of 16 ‘.’— Yes ; and where there is not a sufficient number of
chief factors, the number is made up by chief traders ; that is as regards the
Company’s affairs, the business of the country.

1 153. As regards the government of the territory, how is it governed ; I am
now speaking not of trade, but of the general government of the territory? — In
the Red River Settlement, in the district of A.ssiniboia, tlic present recorder is
the governor of the district.

1 154. He has the executive power as well as the judicial : — Yes.

1 1,”).’). What extent cf territory is that over ? — The district of Assiniboia takes
50 miles hy the compass round the Red River Settlement.

n.^^”. Has he any assistance in that, or does he do it entirely himself? — The
fact is there is very little to be done in that respect.

i’–!5. I 1157. What

(■.6

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKKN BEFORE THE

Hi

ii’ lie

m

‘,■1

i [
price
and no
ment t
from b
being
accordi
are pai

0.25

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON’S BAY COMPANY. 69

vould not
t was not

I not take

t, entitled
ickir sent
Ion, as an
Lich larger
rer, ajjpli-
)oit tallow
uently the
Uinutes of
:er of the
-breeds to
of which
Bay Coni-
aw of the
the trans-
ticulars ; I

refused by
I Hudson’s

does to the

lorts which
to settlers

-No ; there

iOw far it is
ed, at their
iviloge, but
s not true,
permitted,
anufactures
i correct to
nd the only
article

arlic. • prohibited for export is fur ; with tiiose two exceptions. •'” may import iiirG.Simp.ioii.
or export anytliinn; that anybody requires.

1 239. Then how do you explain the circum.stance of these i/ui’ties not being “G February 1357.
allowed to export their tallow ? — I do not exactly call to mind that circumstance.

I was not in the country at the time : it led to a good deal of correspondence ;
the thing is not quite fresh in my memory.

1240. Did you know a retired servant of the Company, Mr. Dunn r — I did
not know him, but there was such a man.

1241. In what capacity was he employed by the Company? — I think he was
originally a Green years aaro. I think.

1246. Mr. Gr<)gon.'\ Was he in the Company's service during the time that vou wire there ? — No. I never saw him. 1247. You mentioned that 5,000 gallons of spirits are imported into the country. Do you mean that that is the quantity of all the spirits imported ? — That is the whole quantity imported from England. Some of the settlers at lied River smuggle spirits into the country. We are unable to prevent it. 1248. Did you ever hear that Mr. Dunn had published a journal, in reference to his experience in the Hudson's Bay Company? — Yes, but I do not think I tver saw it. I do not recollect having seen it Upon the north-west coast of Ai.ici'ica, 1 have not the least doubt that npirituous liquor has been very much i.rused ; that was during ihe ojiposition with the United Statt^. 124Q. In 1832?— Yes. 1 2j«o. Y^ou gave us the number of chaplains that were employed and paid by th.; Company. Are those chaplains required to keep school? — They are encouraged to keep school. 1 25 1 . Are ihey required ? — No. 1252. The salary that you piiy them has nothing to do with their necessarily keepii.j a sdiool ? — No. They are likewise paid by the societies to which they belong ; Jie Church Missionary Society, or the Wesleyan Society. At Norway House, and at several of the Wesleyan establishments, very large schools are kept. 12,53. Are they paid for their services as schoolmasters by you or by the Missionary Society r -They are paid by us in aid of the mission. A salary is given to those parties in aid of the mission, and they keep schools, according to the instructions which they may have from the society to which they belong. 12.")4. i)o they receive any payment /'rom the scholars who frequent the schools .' i think not. \2f)^. For what period of time do your servants that go from tliis country engage with you ? — Generally five years. t2,')6. On the average do they return at the expiration 0' the five years? — No, I think they generally remain; I should say that six out of eight remain; they renew their contract over and over again. There are many servants who have been in the service 25 or .'50 years. I2,';7. As a general average, do they remain, say 20 years with you? — Perhaps barely 20 years at present. 1 2.58. Mut they remain a long time ? — Yes, many of our sci"vants remain a long time. Many of our servants remain altogether in the country. They retire from the service, and become settlers at the Ued River. 12.59. What is the highest salary that the Company pay their servants? — The price of labour has increased very much. It was some years ago 17/. sterling, and now it is increased to men coming direct f. om England on their first engage- ment to 20/. ; and it is raised according to their position afterwards. A man from being a common labourer, takes either the stern or tlie head of a boat ; being called the bowsman or the steersman; in that case, he is paid higher according to his capabihty as ■'•. boatman. Fishermen nre paid higher ; they are paid 30 /., 35 /., and lb l. in many cases ; tradesmen also are paid higher. 0.25. 1 3 1260. The j II 70 MINUTES OF I'VIDENCE TAKF,^' BEFORE THE WW [Iv '.W/. ^'' U t i Sir 0. Simpion. I j("u). The class that vou dcscrilie as labourers are paid 20/. to 30/., and lio I. ^— Ves. a6 February i8g-. \2(>\. What may be the salary of the superior officers .—Tbe factors and
traders have an interest in the trade ; they are partners.

iJtij. Mr. Kiuntiird.] The 1(J factors ■• — The 10 factors and the 29 traders.

i^tij. Mr. Grogaii.] Tliey are, to a certain extent, partners in tlie adven-
ture : — Yes.

rj()4. A v»itness informed us on tlie la.st day that, with rofjard to the barter
between tlie trader or factor and tlie Indians, it was aU done accordinj; to a
tariff?— Yes, there is a tariff.

i2fi,5. Is that tariff settled by the council, the governor, and factors; oris
it settled in this country? — There is a tariff of very old standing; the Indian
and the trader perfectly understand each other as regards the taritl’.

iJi’ti. I5y wliom was the tariff settled?— The tariff was settled originaltv by
the original traders. It has been modified from time to time according to cir-
cumstances.

1 2(>-j. ‘1 he existing tariff in its nioditiud form is ratified and carried out bv the
council ? — Yes. It varies in different parts of the country.

1268. In the event of a varince of that tariff, who si-ttles that variance ? —
The council do.

1269. A question was put to you relative to any compensation or pension
which might be given by the Company to old officers or servants, auf] those
who might have received injuries in the service, and you stated that many of
them were extremely comfortable ? — Yes, many of them have retired with means
saved in the country.

1 270. Do you confine your answer to the superior officers, the factors, and
truders, or do you ixtend it to the servants? — I speak of labourers. I have
known labourers retire with from 200 /. to 300/. ; Orkney iabou’-^rs, who are
cxtnmely economical in their habits. I speak of those who have been in the
country for a great length of time.

1271. They have saved that money out of the wages of from 20/. to .30 /. a
year, and the four per cent, which you allow them for money which they do not
draw ? — Yes.

i.’72. Mr. Gordon.’] I think there is no other settlement of any importance,
besides the Red River, of whites living under the government, but not in the
service ot the Company, in your territory ; of course I do not apeak of Van-
couver’s Island ? — There is a small suttlement at a distance of about GO miles
from Red River, at a place called Portage la Frairie.

127 J. How
years.

Mr. Roilnuk.] AVhereubouts is it ? — ‘J’hat is up the Assiniboine.
That is close to the Ued River? — Yes.

Mr. Gordon.] Is it in your power to sanction suth an establishment,
or is it only in the power of the Governor and the Company at home ?— We were
opposed to this settlement in the first instance as being difficult of management.
It was at such a distance from the seat of government, that we had not the same
control. If offences were connnitted, there were no constables witliin reach.
There were no means of laying; hold of the offenders.

1277. What reason made it much more difficult to communicate with it ? —
The distance of 60 miles is considerable.

127S. Is it 60 miles of interrupted river ? — I think it is about 60 miles from
Portage la Prairie to the Forts (Fort Ciarry).

1279 And the river comimmication is not good ? — The river communication
is not good.

1280. Mr Charles FitzwUliam.\ Is there no communicalion by land.’ — There
is a communication by land.

1281. Mr. Gordon.’] Is it in your power to sanction such an establishment
as that, or must it he the Governor and Com])any at home who sanction its
foniiation?— I referred to the Governor and Committee, who thought it desirable
that the settlement should not be established ; but no step was taken to
prevent it.

.2H2. They permitted it, hut did not sanction it ? — Yes.
1283. If I went and chose to settle there, might I do so without any opposi-
tion ? — Yes ; in any part of the territory, so far as I am aware, it has never

been

long has that settlement been established ? — .Seven or eight

1 274.
1275-

]27(..

1;

No;

goods

Orleiii

Facto

The

100

‘3(
miles,

i3t
thegc

0.2

k« ^’< SELECT COMMITTE , ON THE IIITD«: ^ "S BAY COMPANY. 71 been objected to. There has never been a case 'here application has been sir O. Himpvm. made. 1J84. Supposing such application were made, ould it be encmraged. or 56 Fflbruary 1857. discouraged as you have discouraged it in this hii er case ? — That would be a Tiiatter lor consideration. 1 have not prepared my; elf to answer that. ijSi. Do you consider that your right to sell land is the same in those terri- tories which you hold under your charter, and in those which you hold under your license to trade r — No ; Ave do not considur that we have any right to sell land under our license to trade. I jSlt. \.m I mistaken in supposing that you said that you considered your- selves justified by your license to trade, in selling land in the Oregon country ? — A special provision was made in the treaty for such sale, respecting our possessory vit^hts. 1JS7. Mr. Edward JSi.. v. ] That related tc property "hich the Comjiany actually created ?— Yes. 1288. Mr. G^'doii.] Which you could occupy, but not sell?— We were pro- prietors as well as occupiers. IJ89. What are the conditions now required of any settler takin»er is generally the first thing
introduced in an American colony ? — Yes.

1301. Has there never been a wish expresseci by the settlers of the Red River
colony to have a newspaper there ? — Not thai I am aware of. I suggested ,
some years ago, that they should get up a newspaper, but they could not get
anybody to take charge of it.

1302. Can you tell me what is the freight per ton on goods iinported from
London to the Red River? — £.5 a ton, and 1 ‘. for lighterage and storage, and
being warehoused ; that is 6 /.

1303. It was lately a good deal higher than that, was it not, 8 /. or 9 1.1 —
No ; i think it was lower. I believe there has bto.i very little change.

1304. I have hoard it repeatedly stated, that the cheapest way of receiving
goods in the Red River for traders there is to have them transmitted by New
Orlciins, and along the Mississippi ; that it is cheaper than tluir going by York
Factory ; do you believe that to be the case? — Ti’ • freight to ^’01 k is 5 ^. a ton.
The freight from St. Paul’s to Red River is 18 /. a ton, or 16*. the piece of
100 pounds.

iSOf,. What is the distance from Red River to York Tactoryr— About 600
miles, I think; and the freight from York Factory is 20/. a ton to the Red River.

1306. Mr. Edward Ellice.] With regard to that freight, any person can take
the goods as cheaply as they like? — Thev ‘•an take them any way they please;

0.2,5. ^4 ‘we

l,Y^’-i

72

MINUTES OF EVIP’:NCE TAKEN BKFOHK THE

I , . I ■”■a

I

ifjji

mi

I-

\\m

vn

VlH

Hit G.Simpsnii. we pay that amount oursclvos. Wo do not do our own transport ; we usually

employ tlu’ tViMj;litt’r.s at the Red llivtT. Diliereut tradci do :lu; transport for

•36 Fi-l)rmirv 1857. US i’roin York Factory to the Red River.

1,307. Mr. (lordoii.] What is the di^ttance from Red itiver to Lake Superior r
— Six hundred miles.

1 308. You think that the distance from York Factory to Red River is not
greater than from Fort William to Red River? — It is about the name, perliaps :
but the freight from l^ake Superior to the Red River in the transport of the
flour whieli I havf I liore mentioned, was 40.«. a pieci’, or 45 /. a ton.

ijof). The route i- m \ork Factory to Red River is not a very good one, is
it r — It is very bad as lar ns Norway House.

j;)io. ‘ . it not I e case that there have been petitions iVc n ‘.hn settlers in the
Red River to have that route improved ? — We cannot n .klcwally improve it.
It is not susceptible of improveuierit without a prodigious outlay ; such an outlay
as { ar trafVto would not aft’oi’d.

1311. Mr. BflL] Has tliere been a petition? — lam not aware of a petition.
We are very an.\iou8 that the route should be improved for our own purposes;
but the outlay for improvement would be more than the trade could aflord.

131 J. Mr. Gordon.] You say that it is very bad ; do you think it worse, or not,
so bad as the route to Fort William ? -It is not so bad, inasmuch as we can use
boats, carrying about three tons, between York Factory and Red River, and the
only means of transj)ort between Lake Superior and Red River is a small canoe.

1313. I sup|)ose, if the route to Lake Superior could be improved, it would be
the shortest route from Enulanct for goods ; there would be water communication
up to Lake Superir)r ? — Yes.

1314. It would be easier than by Hudson’s Bay ? — I think the route caimot
be improved stifficiently for the transport of goods.

‘3i.^’ What are the great difHculties on that route which prevent its being
improved ? — The depth of water in the river, the interruption from rapids and
falls, and the swampy chaacter ot the country.

i3i(>. Is not that the way which the old North-West Company used to
carry all their supplies for the use of the interior? — It is.

1317. Then they must have carried along there nearly as much as you carry
from York Factory ? — No ; it was not one-tenth of the transport that we have
from York.

1318. If i ui)f erstood you rightly, you said that the copy of the resolutions,
dated 184.’), \tas not authentic; I have a copy of the resolution witli respect to
the dutii-‘i tu b( paid on all imports into the settlement? — That resolution, I
think, ‘.•. = :■. (Iiiiir G. simpiou.

tor insluiicc, u part of Miickciizies llivcr, it occupies seven yeuis ; that is, (roni

the time the ijoods are shipped iii London until tlie returns are brought to sale in *^ leoruory i^i7.
Entiliind.

I ;}-‘.■)•

schools, has any obstacle
■r ihc instruction of the
uraged.
^c!i, i\lr. .James I-eitli. F

Yes.

Then seven yciirs would he the extreme ? — Yew.

I3j(i. And w!\iit would he the inininuun .’— Kroni three to four years.

l;}j!7. It ranjies from three to seven years r — V^es.

l;VJS. y\v. Klniiitird.] You have not told us anything about the Uiiture ot the
iKipulatiou iu Vancouver’s Ishuid ? — I know very little about Vancouver’s Island ;
I have not lieen there since it Wiis cst’.iblished.

ijj(). (an you tell me the state of tlie population on the west of the Rocky
Mountains ; of the Indians there ? — The Indiiins aro all in u state of warfare in
Oregon. In tlie Hritish territory they are more independent ; they have a better
position as re;;ards means of subsistence than on the east side of the mountains ;
Hsil i- vi’i V abundant ; salmon.

1 ■_},,,.. is tiiere no process ff settlement : — None. Thece are Indian villages
along the coast, and salmon are very abundant, and deer are very al)undant, and
on some of the islands they raise pot. toes.

I ;;}!. Mr. CIhuIiii l”itziiilli(i»i. ] With refe” to
ever been put in the way of schools being e^la. ‘<"' Indians? — Never. On the contrary, they have i (33 J. Did you know Mr. I.i ithii a chief ' knew him intimately. 1 333. lie died some years ago 'f — Yes, 1334. lie had amassed a considerable sum of 1335. Which on his death he bc(|ueathed to >auous puiposes ? — Yes.

1331). Can >ou tell the Committee what tiiose purposes were? — I think the
))roiuotion of religion in the Company’s territories; religion or religious instruc-
tion ; 1 for;:et the precise terms.

1337. ^lr. Edward Ellice.] The amount was 10,000 /., was not it?— Ye».

1338. Mr. C/iiir/cs Fitzrcilluim.] Are you sure that it was not for education,
and not religion? – I cannot speak to the will, but the e.\( cutors, I think, were
the Bishop of London, the Dean of Westminster, the (iovernor of the Hudson’s
Bay Company, and his own brother.

1339. How has that money been a|)plied ? — To the suppoit of this mission.

1340. Of what mission? — The Bishop of Rupert’s Land.

1341. But a little while ago yon informed us that the Company paid to the
Bishop of Rupert’s Land a salary of ‘100/. a year ? — Yes.

1342. What has become of the income of 300/. a year, which is the interest
on 10,000/., more or less? — I am not able to answer the question. I cannot
state distinctly how the application of this money has been made.

1343. .Mr. ZiOMf.] You say that it goes to tlie Bishop of Rupert’s Land ? —
I think it is under his direction.

1344. Mr. Grogaii.] You spoke of the Company possessing rights in Oregon,
which rights w ere recognised under the treaty vvith America r — Yes.

1 34,5. What were those rights ; a licence to trade r — They were our posses-
sory rights, whatever they were ; there is a difficulty as to the interpretation of
possessory rights.

1346. Lands which you have improved and cultivated?— Yes. There is a
question as to what the possessory rights may be considered ; different lawyers
give diti’erent opinions upon the subject. The late Daniel Webster considered
that wherever our trappers wrought, wherever our wood-cutters hewed timber,
wherever our Hocks and herds ranged, we had jiossessory rights. Other lawyers
have given a different interpretation

1347. Had you the exclusive right to trade in that district ? — The same licence
to trade as we had on the east side of the mountains.

1348. Do you consider that you have that right now: — Yes; our licence to
♦”•ade has not expired yet ; it will expire in 1859.

1349. If an Knglishman went to that district and attempted to trade in furs,
do you consider that you would have the power to prevent his doing so? —
I think so.

1350. If un American were to do it, do you think you vrould have the power
to prevent him ?— I think so.

0.25. K 1351. Do

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Sciences
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23 WEST MAIN STREET

WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580

(716) 872-4503

74

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

I n

Sir O.Simpton. 1351- Do you think he would be prevented by you ? — I do not know that he

— would.

96 February 1857. 13,52. Mr. Edward EUice.’\ With reference to the council at Norway House,
is it not one of the objects ot the council to assemble together once a year the
persons having chary;e of tlie posts in distant parts of the country? — Yes.

•3,53- ‘n order that they may compare notes, and consult together in the
aggregate as to what should be done r — Yes.

1354. That is the only time for bringing them together? — Yes.

1355. The country, I believe, is as large as Europe r — The country is of pro-
digious extent : I have an estimate of the mileage.

1356. Mr. JdderUji/.] Would it not be possible to govern the country by
delegated authority at different distances from the centre ; do you suppose that
in the general settlement of the whole of this territory, as big as Europe, it would
be absolutely necessary always to refer home, on every detail of management, to
Norway House? — No, 1 should conceive not.

1357. Is it the case that there is that reference between the Government of
Red River and Norway House • -No.

1358. Is there none whatever? — No.

1359. Did you not state that the Company opposed themselves to another
settlement on” the borders of Red River, as being too distant from the seat of
government ?— They did not decidedly oppose it, but they discouraged it.

I /i6o.

On that ground ?-

Our

-As being more (iifficult of management.

1361. From its distance from Norway House ?— No, iiom Assiniboia.
gaol, and court-house and police, are all in the settlement.

1362. When you Sfjcak of the seat of government, what do you mean ? — The
seat of government of -Assiniboia, which forms a circuit of 30 miles by the com-
pass from the forks of the Red and Assiniboine Rivers.

1363. Have the inhabitants of the Red River Settlement any influence what”-
soever over the decisions of the council which govern them ? — ^The principal
inhabitants of Red River are themselves the councillors of Assiniboia, with the
governor.

1364. When you say tliut the recorder is governor ol’ Red River, do you mean
that he is ex officio always so .’—No ; he w as considered a very tit man to hold

both offices. , , , 1 • • 11 1

1365. He was so appointed r—\ es ; he was the recorder ongujally, and on
the retirement of the former governor he had the commissio-i of governor like-

1366. Who appoints his council ?— They are appointed by tiie Company, at the
suggestion of the governor, or on the application of any of the inhabitants.

1 367 But is it an appointment by the governor, or an application by the
habitants r— Both. The Company is willing to appoint anybody who may be

He was

inhabi

considered a fit person qualified for the office.

1368. What is the name of the present recorder ?— hrancis Johnson,
a Queen’s counsel in Canada. . , , r,,,

i3(i(). For what length of time are the members appointed?— I here is no

limitation of the time. * ., , ■ ^ a ■ t tu

,370. Are their appointments for life? -No; there is no hxed i)eriod ; they

are appointed councillors.

M71. During pleasure? -During pleasure. . , „, . »»

n72 Are the council at Norway House appomted m tlie same way .— At

Norway House the factors are councillors under their comnussioii.

,373 Are they appointed during pleasure ?-No; it is whde they hold the

commission of factor. , ,, .. ^ ^e ^o:„„

,374. For the whole length of the tenure ?-Ye8, the tenure of otbce.

1 37-;. Mr. Edward Ellice.] That is under the charter ?— It is.

1376. Mr. Adderley.-] Is your appointment an appointment for life r— No ;
my appointment is by the Governor and Committee.

1377 Mr. Roebuck.} I think it is a double government. You hav.; a govern-
menVin England and one in Hud.on’8 Bay, have you not?-The Governor and

Company are the superiors ; they have the supreme direction.

1378. The Governor and Company i” England appoint the Governor

m

Hudson’s Bay ?— They do

1379. According

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSOVS BAY COMPANY. 75

Sir G. Simpsm.

1379. According to their will and pleasure, and his appointment is revoked at
tlieir will and pleasure? — It is so.

I ;8o. So that, in fact, the Goteriior out there is the downright servant of the “^ February 1857.
Governor and Company here ? — He is positively their servant.

i;^8i. And wiiat they desire him to do he is bound to do? — He is.

13S2. Where does he live usually when he gets to that country ? — I have been
the Governor for the last 37 years, and I have lived nearly all over North
Ameiica. I have lived in Oregon, I have lived in Hudson’s Bay, in Red River,
at York Factory, and in Athabasca. I have travelled the whole country over.

1 383. There are no head-quarters of the Government, then, and tlie talk about
the Governor and council is a mere idle statement ? — No. The Governor of
Assiniboia is resident upon the spot.

1384. I remark that you always allude to your Ked River Government at
Assiniboia ; did you not just now say that that simply occupied a circuit of 50
miles by the compass ?— Ves.

138,5. And the whole countrj’, you have told us, and the map tells us also, is
as large as Europe ? — Yes.

138(1. So that when you talk of that small territory, it is like talking of San
Marino, in Europe r — Criminals would be sent down to Assiniboia.

1387. If a murder were committed on the shores of the .-Arctic Sea, would the
mail be sent down to Assiniboia r— Yes, in the first instance.

138R. Have you ever known an instance of a murder on the shores of the
Arctic Sea : — Not on the shores of the Arctic Sea, but within the Arctic circle.

1380. Can you state that case to me? — I cannot give all the details from
memory.

1390. Mr. Edward Ellirc] Was that the case which you spoke of before
to-day ? — Y’es ; Creole le Oraisse was one ; there were three.

139 1 . Mr. Roebuck.] So that in your long life there of 30 odd years you have
known three cases?— That was one particular case; those three person? were
accomplices ; tiiey were sent to Canada for trial.

1392. Are those the only cases which you recollect r — ^The only cases in the
Arctic regions, that I recollect.

‘393- How many criminals do yon suppose are annually tried at Assiniboia ?
— I think the whole of the criminal cases within my recollection are but 19 in
the 37 years.

1394. And that you call administerinji; justice in that country ? — Yes.

139.5- We may take that as a specimen of the administration of justice in those
countries under the rule of the Hudson’s Bay Company ? — Of the absence of
crime, I should hope ; we claim to ourselves great credit.

1396. Do you mean to say that in your tenure of office there for 37 years there
has been only in fact 19 criminals in that country? — I think so.

1397. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Are those serious cases or minor ofieucea? —
Serious cases.

1398. Mr. Roebuck.] Take murders: do you mean to say that in all your term
of office of upwards of 30 years, there have been only 19 murders committed in
the whole of the Hudson’s Bay territory? — There were II people killed in this
particular case which I am referring to.

1399. Do you mean to say that in the 37 years of your gor-inment of that
country there have been only 19 murders committed? — Nineteen cases; I said
there were 1 1 murders in that first case which I spoke of.

1400. I want to ascertain what has been the administration of justice in Uiat
country ; I want to know how many persons have been brought to justice ; you
tell me 19? — Since 1821 there have been 19 cases of homicide in which the
Hudson’s Bay Company’s people were concerned ; in 1 1 punishment was inflicted ;
one prisoner was tried and acquitted ; one was a case of justifiable homicide ;
three accused parties died before being captured, and in three cases there was no
evidence to proceed against them ; those arc the 19 cases.

1401. Do vou say that that fairly represents the state of crime in that country ?
—I do.

1402. Do you mean to say that since 1821, the date that you have quoted,
there have been only those 19 cases of murder in that country? — In which the
Company’s people were concerned ; in the wars that take place in the plains
among the Blackfeet there are cases in which we cannot interfere.

0.25. K 2 1403. I refer

1

Mf

■i!

1 1

76

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Sir 6 Jlimpson. 1403. I refer to cases over which the recorder has jurisdiction ? — Yes.
1404. That is your estimate of the crime in that country ?— Yes.
«6 February 1857. ,^(,^ jyj^ Edward Ellicc.’} In short, it is your knowledge ?— Yes, as far as
my knowledge goes.

1406. Mr. Roebuck.] I have a book in my hand published by you I think in
1847 ? — Very possibly.
• 1407. How long had you been then Governor of that country? — Twenty-seven

years.

1408. And 1 suppose that in those 27 years you had acquired a good detil of
experience ? — Yes.

1 409. Arc we to take this book as the result of your experience of 27 years ?
— I think you may.

1410. And all that you stated then was your view after 27 years’ experience
of that country ? — I think so.

1411. So that if you had died at that moment, which I am very happy to see
that you did not, we might have taken this book as your view of that country ?
— Y’es.

1412. Has anything happened since that time to alter your views of tiiat
country r — No, I do not know that 1 have materially altered my views in regard
to it.

1413. I know that this passage has been read to you before, but its matter
has struck me very much, from its poetry as well as otherwise, and 1 will read
it again, and ask you why, if you have changed your opinion, you have changed it :
“The river which empties Lac la Pluie into the Lake of the Woods, is, in more
than one respect, decidedly the finest stream on the whole route. From Fort
Frances downwards, a stretch of nearly a hundred miles, it h not interrupted
by a single impediment, while yet the current is not strong enough materially to
retard au ascending tiaveller. Nor are the banks less favourable to agriculture
than the waters themselves to navigation, resembling in some measure those
of the Thames uear Richmond. From the very brink of the river there rises a
gentle slope of greensward, crowned in many places with a plentiful growth of
birch, poplar, beech, elm, and oak. Is it too much for the eye of philanthropy
to discern, through the vista of futurity, this noble stream, connecting as it
does the fertile shores of two spacious lakes, with crowded steamboats on its
bosom, and populous towns on its borders”? — I speak of tiie bank of the river
there.

1414. I am going to direct your attention to the river itself; the river itself
was at that time capable of bearing steamboats r — Quite so.

1415. Is it not so now ? — It is.

1416. And the Land was very fertile then, you say ? — ^The right bank of the
river which I speak of, indeed both banks, the lip of the rive*

1417. You say, ” Nor are the banks less favourable ;” you ■> lO both*banks r
— Yes ; I confine myself to the banks ; the back country is o le deep morass,
extending for miles.

1418. So that anybody reading that passage would have very much mistaken
the nature of the country if he had thought that that was the description of it ?
— Not as regards the banks ; I confine myself to the banks.

1419. Does a traveller usually give such descriptions of a country as that? — ■
Yes, I, as a traveller, did so.

1420. Then we may take that to be a specimen of your view of the country?
— You may.

1421. I will now direct your attention to that portion of the country stretchiag
round the Red River Settlement. Supposing you took the compass as far as the
boundary line, and struck a circle roup 1, how far is the Red River Settlement
from the boundary ? — About 50 miles.

1422. That would be a diameter of 100 miles ? — Yes.

1423. Supposing you took a square, and you included Lake Winnipeg, up to
the north, and went to Cumberland House, and you then came down the parallel
of longitude 105°, making a very large square of 10 degrees of longitude and five
degrees of latitude, you would have a large territory, would not you r — It would
be a large territory.

1424. A good large colony ? — Yes.

1425. Supposing

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON’S BAY COMPANY. 77

142.5. Supposing that were done, and it were erected into a territory, say at
the end of the United States ; do yuu suppose that that country could be self-
supporting ?— I think not.

J42fi. Why ? — On account of the poverty of the soil ; along the banks of the
river I have no question that a settlement might be self-supporting ; a popu-
lation thinly scattered along the banks of the river might support themselves,
but a dense population could not live in that country ; the country would not
afford the means of subsistence.

1427. That is your view of the country ? — That is my view of the country.

1428. You are here to tell us that the country is very barren, and could not
support a population ? — It could not support a large population, and, moreover,
there is no fuel ; the fuel of the country would be exhausted iu the course of a
very few years.

i4.i9. Why is tliere no fuel ; are thers no woods ? — No woods ; all that prairie
country is bare of woods.

1430. And yet I see the country upon this map marked green, and they tell
me that that signifies the woody country ? — Yes, that is the woody country.

1431. Mr. Grogan.l You described the river at the Rainy Lake, in the passage
read by Mr. Roebuck, as capable of bearing steamboats at the time that book
was written ? — Yes.

1^32. For about GO miles of its distance.^ — Probably about 60 miles.

1433. Is it in the same condition now ? — Yes; from the outlet of Rainy Lake
to the Lake of the Woods, there are four rapids.

1 434. But those rapids you do not consider would be an impediment to steam
navigation r — Two of them would be, and a third rapid, at the establishment,
would be an impediment.

M3.5- What may be its extent r — It is a waterfall of about 40 or 50 feet.

1436. For a quarter of a mile, or less ?— The portage formed by this waterfall
is a quarter of a mile.

1437. You would then get into the Rainy Lake; that is navigable, of course r
—Yes.

1438. For a steamer ?— Yes.

1439. ^ hen I see a series of small lakes going down towards Whitewood ;
are they navigable r — No.

1440. Am I to understand you that, from the Lake of the Woods down to
Whitewood Lodge or House, it would be navigable for a steamboat also?— No,
but to the end of Lac la Pluie.

1441. What distance is that altogether; is it 60 m’es?— The Lake of the
Woods is about 60 miles.

1442. A second 60 miles ? — A second 60 miles.

1443. That would be 120 ?— Yes. The river ‘runs from the Rainy Lake down
to the Lake of the Woods, and from the Lake of the Woods the River Winnipeg
flows down to Lake Winnipeg.

1444. Is it navigable for that distance ?— Not the River Winnipeg. There
are a number of portages in it, and the river is not navigable except ^y boats.
The part of the navigation which is fit only for canoes is from the Ramy Lake
to Fort William, Lake Superior.

1445. What distance is that r— That is about 300 miles.

1446. Mr. Edward EUice.] Are reports of the conduct of each servant sent
in by the chief factors and traders every year?— No ; reports upon the character
of the whole establishment are sent in ; if there is any thing remarkable it is
noted.

1447. And each chief factor is responsible for the conduct ot the servants

under him ? — Decidedly.

Sir G. Simpioiu

‘.’FT

Mm.^.-.

1

i ‘■ ‘

afi February 1357.

n

0.25.

K3

78

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

LnncE, 2° die Martii, 1857.

MEMBERS present;

Ml. Adiierlcv.

Mr. Bell.

Mr. Bliickburn.

Mr. Edward Ellicf.

Mr. Charles Fitzwilliani.

Mr. Gladstone.

Mr. Gordon.

Mr. tiregAi)!).

Mr. Grogan.

Mr. Guriif V.

Mr. Percy Hi-.rberi.
Mr. Kinnaird.
Mr. Labouchere.
Mr. Lowe.
Sir John I’akington.
Mr. Rueback.
Lord Joliii Rusitelj.
ViscouiK Sandoii.
Lord Siaiilev.

The Rioht Hon. HENRY LABOUCHERE m the Ch.ur.

Sir George S’tnqysoii, called in ; and further Examined.

9\r G. Simptoti. 144^. Mr. Kdivard Ellice.] YOU were asked the other day to ham! in a copy

of tlie land deed by which tiio Company convey land to settlers at Red River ‘

a March 1857. — Yes ; here it is. The leading conditions are, not to deal in furs; not to distil
or import spirituous liquors ; to resist foreign invasion, and to promote religious
Vide Appendix, instruction. — ( T/ic same was delivered in.)

1440. With regard to the Indian Settlement at Cumberland, you were asked
sonic ([ucstions with reference to a sum of money of 10,000/. which was left by
the late »V(r. Leith, who had been in the Company’s service? — Yes.

1450. Will you have the goodness to explain that matter ? — The words of the
bequest are the following : The legacy by James Leith was ” for the purpose of
establishing, propagating and extending the Ciiristian Protestant religion in and
amongst tlie native aboriginal Indians of Rufiert’s Land.” The fund, with the
accuuiiiiutions of interest, now amounts to 13,345/.

1451 . Mr. Roebuck.] What are you quoting from ? — ^The words of the will.
14 ‘”,2. Is that the only statement in the will ; does the will say nothing of the

means by which religion is to be propagsUed .’ — No. These are the words :
” For the purpose of eetabUshing, propagating, and extending the Christian
Protestant religion in and amongst the native aboriginal Indians of Rupert’s
Land.”

^A.’i’.i- Is that all ?— That is all that is said upon the subject.

1454. Mr. Ed’uxird Ellice. \ I think you stated the other day that the money
was left to certain trustees!- — Yes. The sum now amounts to 13,345/. Three
per Cent. Consols.

1 455. Mr. Boelmck.] That you do not quote from the will ? — No.

1456. Mr. Edward Ellke.’] That is lodged in Chancery, is it not? — Yes, it
is now in Chancery.

1457. By whom is it administered? — It was commilted to the Bishop of
Rupert’s Land by the Court of Chancery, upon the understanding that the
Hudson’ Bay Company would add to t^c Bishop’s income a salary of 300/. per
annum, and provide him with a residence.

1458. Which the Company did:— Yes. The executors are, I think, the
Bishop of London, the Dean of Westminster, the Governor and Deputy-Governor
of the Hudson’s Bay Company, and his own brother, Mr. William Leith.

1459. They are the trustees by whom the fund is administered? — Yes.

1460. VVith regard to the pensions of retired servants of the Company, have
you anythinj^ to add to your former statement? — Yes. I was asked whether
there was any pension for retired servants. There is a sum of 300/. a year
set aside from the profits uf tiie trade to pension old and deserving officers.
To servants and others not entitled to participate in that fund, special grants

are

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON’S BAY COMPANY. 79

are made on the ncommendation of the councils. When servants are incapa-
citated by age for active duty, they are superannuated, and kept at the posts as
supernumeraries, rendering such voluntary si rvice as they please in return for
their food and clothing.

1461. You were also asked to put in the census of the Red River population.
Have vou it ?–Yes.

1462. Will you put it in ‘^ — {The Witness delivered in the same.) The total
population shown is 6,500; add the population of Portage la Prairie, Manitobah,
and Pembina, l.oOO ; making a total of 8,000.

I4(i3. Mr. Roebuck.] Will you tell us where those places are, so that we
may know the area of country ? — They are parts of the Red and Assiniboine
Rivers. The settlement extends along those rivers, up and down, above and
below the fort.

I ^64. You stated a certain number of names. I want to know where those
names are upon that map ? — I am statinju; where the first is.

146,5. The first is the Red River Settlement? — Yes.

Mfiti- What is the next ? — The next is Portage la Prairie, about 60 miles
above Red River, upon the Assiniboine ; Manitobah is about 60 miles in a
northerly direction, upon a lake of that name.

i4t)7. Mr. Edivard RUiceJ] Will you point out Pembina? {The same was
pointed out.)

14(“)8. Mr. Roebuck.’] What is the number of the population in those places?
— Eight thousand.

14(19. Whites and altogether? — Yes.

1470. Mr. Edicard Etlice.] Have you put it in in detail ? — Yes.

1471. You were also asked to put in the census of the Indian population in
detail over tiie whole territory ? — Yes. Here is the census of the Indian popu-
lation. Tiiei e is a list of the Company’s trading posts, and the estimated number
of Indians frefjuenting those posts. [The Witness delivered in tliesame.)

1472. Mr. Roelmck.] Will you state the total? — The Indians, east of the
n.ountains, 55,000 ; west of the mountains, 80,000 ; Esquimaux, 4,000.

>473- What is the date of that census ? — Last year.

1474. Have you any census for 20 years back ? — We have no regular census.
It is a very ditHcult matter to get a census ; the tribes are so migratory that it is
impossible to fill up a correct census ; this is an estimation.

147,”,. Did the Company ever attempt to make a census in times past? — We
havo attempted it in various jjarts of the country.

1476. Have you that census ?— T have no census.

1477. Could you get it?— Not in less than two or three years; two years
certainly.

1478. Why would it take you that time to get it? — On account of the dis-
tance ; sending off now, we could not get the census in the most remote part of
Mackenzie’s River before IS months or two years from this date.

1470 I asked you if the Company had made attempts to get a census some
years back, and you said they had ? — Yes, we have, from time to time, in different
parts of the country.

1480. Can you put the Committee in possession of those censuses? — I think
not.

1481. Why not? — I do not know that they have been sent here. But our
estimate of the population has been confirmed by travellers ; for instance, Colonel
Lefroy took an estimate of the population.

1 482. You give the census now. I want to get the census 20 years back, to
know whether the population has increased or decreased? — I cannot supply
that.

1483. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Colonel Lefroy’s estimate was made in 1843, I
think ; that is 13 years ago? — Yes.

1484. When was Major Warre’s made; in 1845, 1 think? — Yes.

1 485. With regard to the use *” spirituous liquors, you were asked the other
day whether there were any rules in the council, or any published regulations
regarding them ; have you got any such rules ? — Yes. I have first an extract
from the standing rules and regulations of the fur trade, dated 1843, prohibiting
the use of spirituous liquors. Likewise, a copy of the 42d minute of the
council for the southern department, dated 1851, prohibiting the importation
of spirituous liquors into that department. Thirdly, a copy of an agreement,

0.25. K 4 dated

Sir G. Simpiun.
3 March 1857.

Vide Appendix.

Vide Appendi.x.

8o

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

iiiili

iihi< !i; 'III ! } ■ l^ Hit c.Simpton. dated 13th May 1842, between the Hudson's Bay Company and the Rustiian- American Company, proliibiting tlie use of spirituous liquors on the north-west a March 1857. coast of America. yide Ap(>»nilii. 148(1. Will } ou hand those in r — {The Witness (Jelinred in the snuie.)

14S7. You were also asked with reference to the refusal of the Company to
export some goods belonging to a man named Sinclair, at Red River? — Ves.

1488. Have you any explanation to give of that circumstance? — In 1844, Mr.
Sinclair forwardrd to Y’ork a (juantity of tallow, for the purpose of shipment to
England in the Company’s vessel. The ship was so full, that a iar;;e quantity of
theCompaiiy’s property and Mr.Sinclair’s tallow were left out. As it was doubtful
Mhether room could be found in the following season, the Company took the
tallow off the hands of Mr. Sinclair, on his own terms, on the 25th of July 1845.
But although the property of the Company, it remained there for a year after-
wards, for want of room in our ships.

1489. Mr. lioehuck!] Was there any attempt to accumulate tallow by other
persons, besides Mr. Sinclair, the next year? — Mr. Sinclair, and, I think, Mr.
M’Dermot, collected tallow, and sent it down for shipment to York lactory.

1490. The next year? — In the year 1844.

1491. That was the first year ; I asked you with reference to the second year?
— The second year I am not aware that there was any tallow shipped.

1492. Was there an accumulation of tallow by other parties besides Mr. Sinclair
in that territory ? — I think not.

1493. There was none brought? — None that I am aware of; Mr. Sinclair and
Mr. M’Dermot were the only two parties that I have any recollection of as having
coI]( cted tallow for the purpose of shipment to F^ngland.

1494. I think you say the Company left the tallow there, and they did not
buy it until the next year ? — They could not ship it ; a large quantity of the
Company’s goods were likewise shut out.

1495. That is to say, the Company having the exclusive right of trading there,
did not provide shipping enough to carry it on r — Yes ; there was not shipping
enough that season.

1496. Mr. Edward Ellice.] But I think you stated the other day that there
was no objection on the part of the Company to any other person chartering a
freight if he liked ; to take away or to bring anything lie wanted ? — Not at all ; 1
have suggested to Mr. M’Dermot and Mr. Sinclair, and various other people, that
they had better charter a ship for themselves.

1497. Mr. Roebuck.] Do you mean to say that the Company would allow any-
body to send ships into Hudson’s Bay, to trade in that part of the world r — No,
not for the purpose of trade ; I said that the inhabitants of Red River are quite
at liberty to import their own supplies in their own ships.

1498. How much tallow was there ? — ^There may have been a few tons ; I do
not exactly recollect the number of packages.

1499. -^nd you suggested to the senders that they should get a large ship, to
carry 200 tons of tallow ? — No ; we take out about 10,000 /. worth of property for
them sometimes.

1500. You say that you oifefed to those gentlemen, Mr. Sinclair and Mr.,
IM’Dermot, the power to charter a .ship to carry that tallow to England? — Yes ;
at that time they were talking of forming a large association for the purpose of
breeding cattle for the export of tallow, and for growing hemp or flax ; I suggested
that they should charter a vessel for themselves for such puqioses.

1501 . Mr. Edward Ellice.’] Have the Company ever chartered vessels so small
as 200 tons to take out their property ? — Yes, several ; there was a ship called
the ” George,” and others.

1502. Mr. Roebuck.] There were 200 tons of tallow left behind that year? — 1
do not say there were 200 tons, but there was a quantity of tallow : I cannot fix
upon any specific amount.

1503. You say there was no increase of that quantity the next year? — No, I do
not think there was any.

1504. And you suggested to these parties that they might then charter a
vessel to carry home that tallow? — No, not then, but previously for many years
I had suggested it ; they talked of forming a large export trade of colonial
produce; I said, “Very well ; there can be no objection on the part of the
Company.”

SELE(rr COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON’S BAY COMPANY. 8i

)r)05. We are now directin;; our attention to this portion of tallow, and you Sit O. Simpioii.

tell us I hat you suggested to tdeae parties that tliey might charter a ship ; did

yon suggest to them that they might charter a ship to carry home that tallow ? a March 18^7.
-No.

i,’>u6. What did they do with that tallow r — They sold it to the Company.

1507. They could do nothing else I suppose? — ^Th^y miglit have allowed it to
remain there till there was an opportunity of exporting it.

1.508. Till it pleased the Company to take it homer — No, not till it pleased
the Company to take it home, but till they had an opportunity.

1.509. What opportunity could they have?- Their own ships.

151U. That is to f>ay, if they chartered ships according to your suggestion ?
— The Company have certain ships; they generally send two ships a year to
York Factory, and if there was room in those shii>8, they would naturally take
tallow as a matter of course, or any other (iroduce they miglit have.

151 1. • Do you not think that a mode of proceeding uhiuh would put an end
to all trade i — No ; I think if the trade was sufficiently extended, the Company
would piovide shipping, or ihe settlers might provide shipping themselves.

1512. Was not there more produce than the Company’s ships could carry
home upon that occasion ? — Yes ; perhaps there were 30, 40, 50 or 60 tons.

1513. I understood you 200? — You said 200; I said there were a few
hundred weight, or possibly tons.

1514. It was for that that they were to charter a ohip ? — No.

I5)i.<). Mr. Greffson.] Did you not say that you had not sufficient tonnage that season for your own goods?— We had not sufticient tonnage that season for our own goods ; we were obliged to leave out some of our own goods. i5i(). Mr. Jioehuck.] That is to say, you did not charter vessels enough even for your own trade? — Yes. 1517. And yet you were traders? — Yes; it very frequently happens in the port of London, as in every other port, i believe, that goods are left out. 1518. With respect to the manufactured goods which you take out to that territory, have you any account of the amount of goods which you annually take out to that territory f — No. 1.519. Could you get it ? — I could ; I could obtain an estimate of it. 1.520. Possibly, not knowing the actual quai>tity, you can tell me tlie mode
in which the goods, whatever may he the quantity, are distributed ? — 1 think
the imports into the country by the Company are about 60,000 /. a year ; at
the York Factory, Moose and East Main ; that is to say, to the Bay.

1521. Can you give me any idea how that 60,000/. worth of goods is
distributed over that immeuse territory r — I think about two-thirds of that
quantity of goods is given to the Indians ; however, this is merely an approxi-
mation ; I have no ii>iures.

1522. What was the number of Indians which you just now stated ?- On the
east side of the Rocky Mountains, 55,000.

1523. 1 suppose that quantity is confined to the east side of the Ricky
Mountains ? — Yes.

1524. You distribute 40,000/. worth of g:oods among 65,000 Indians? — I
think that is about the estimate.

1 525. What are those goods usually composed of? — British manufactures ;
the staple articles are blankets, cloths, arms, ammunition, iron works, axes,
and various things.

1526. I will direct your attention to arms; in what way are they sold; are
they sold by bat ter or for money ? — They are sold by barter.

1537. For so many skins? — For so many skins.

1528. When you sell a gun to an Indian, do you ever take inferior skins for
that gun ? — We outfit the Indian.

1.529. Cannot you answer me that question? — We do not sell a gun for
skins ; we give «he gun to the Indian, as everything else, on credit, and he pays
for those supplies in the spring of the year.

1530. Supposing a gun is sold to an Indian, would you take in payment an
inferior kind of skins? — We lake in payment whatever he can give us.

1 53 1 • If an Indian had nothing but musk rat skins, you would take those ? —
Yes.

0.35. L 1532. Do

hi

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN Bl.PoRE THE

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Sir (y. Simpton.
3 March 1897.

Do you mean to tell me that?—
Indian whatever he could give

1 mean to say that we would take
us. The Indian must have certain

from an

BUpplil’B.

i.’)3;}- My question is a very plain one; would you take musk rat skins in
payment for a gun from an Indian? — Certainly; we take whatever the Indian
can give us.

1534. And you nicun to state that to me, that fjuns are sold to Indians with
the full undtistiindinK that they may pay \ou i)ack in musk mt skins • — If an
Indian lias nothing but musk rat skins, we will take musk rat skins.

K’^’^5• Sujiposing that were to occur with an Indian once, would he lie likely
to get a second gun r — Yes, decidedly, if he required it.

i,’)3(i. Do you know the relative proportions between musk rat skins and
beavirs ? — We have a variety of tarilTn ; it depends upon the part of the
country where the goods are traded ; as, for insiimce, in Canada we pay in
a great degree money for our furs. On the American frontier we pay fre(|uently
in money ; in ihe interior if is principally a barter trade ; and on the frontier we
are regulated in ourpricts by the prices given by opposition.

i.-)37- Are ihe prices rather higher upon the frontier than they are in the
interior of the country ? — Yes.

1,538. Does not that arise from the competition ? — Yes.

1.530. So that the Indian, where there is competition, gets more than he does
where there is none .-—He does.

1540. Does not that rather improve the condition of the Indian ? — No, cer-
tainly not.

i,’)4i. So that getting more does not improve him? — No, it does not improve
his condition. 1 think that the condition of the Indian, in the absence of oppo-
sition, is better than where he is exposed to opposition.

1542. Chuiniiaii.] For what reasons’ — The absence of spirituous liquors.

1543. Mr. Rotbuck.] First of all let us understand this: in the interior of the
country you say \ou barter with the Indian ?— Yes

i.’;44. And on the frontier you give him money? That frequently happens

in some parts of the country.

• 545- On the frontier he gets a larger price for his
interior ? — Yes.

1546. And you say that notwithstanding that, he is better off in the interior
than he is on the frontier, becau.^e in the one case he gets spirituous liquors,
and in the other case he does not ? — .\nd in other respects. The Indian in the
interior depends upon us fur all his supplies ; whether he is able to pay for ihem
or not, he gets them ; he geii his blankets, he gets his gun, and he gets his am-
munition If from death in his family, or any other cause, he makes no hunt, it
cannot be helped.

1547. I suppose you recollect ihatyou distribute among the Indians less than
1 /. a head .’ — Very possibly we do.

i.”,4ii. I want you to tell me.the condition of the Indian in the interior : is he
ever starved to death in the winter ? — Very rarely.

1,5^9. Ho that if travellers tell us that story tiiey tellus a traveller’s story ? —
Indians do starve us v^hites do starve sometitiies.

1.550. lia\e you ever heard of Indians being reduced to cannibalism during
the winter ?— Yes. I think 1 have, and uf whiles likewise.

1.5′, 1. Because they have not en( agh to eat, I suppose? — Yes.

1.5.52. Upon what, in the hunlinu territory, does the Indian live? — lathe
prairie country he Vi^e^ principally upon buffalo meat.

1.5.53. Does the burtalo reach to where the fur country is ? — There are a few
furs in the buttalo country.

1.5.54. 1 8m talking ot the fur country, where the people pass their time in
hunting tor furs : how do they live in the winter’ — They live in a great degree
upon fish.

1.5.5,5. Are they from one year to another fully supplied with fish? — I think
generally speaking they are.

1 ,5.56. Vou still have instances in your recollection of cannibalism occurring? —
Cannibalism has occurred repeatedly.

‘557« When did it occur in your recollection?— I do not exactly recollect;

I think

goods than he does iti the

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON’S BAY COMPANV. 83

Bome cases of cannibulidra in tlie last few years in the sir O. Siwtpmm.

I think there were
Athabiiscii country.

IV, 8. I hav*! before me a letter of Mr. Kennedy: I suppose von have heard
of Mr. Kennedy? — Tliere are several Kennedys; which Korimdy do you
mean ?

i5-,t(. He is n person who has quarrelled with your Company, 1 believe; and
he wrote a letter to Lord Klgin ? — William Kennedy.

i.8.’i. Mr. lioihucA.] You distinctly said that Nascopie was a station belonging
to the Hudson’s Bay Company r — Ytn.

158(). This account xpiaks of Nascop’e ? — Yes.

1 ‘,>S7. Therefore it belongs to the tludson’s Hay Company? — It did belong; to
the Hudson’s Bay Company.

i/jSH. Mr Orogan.] Has it ever been abandoned? — I do not even know
whether it is at present occupied or not.

i.ijSc). Mr. Kdward Etlice.\ It is still occupied ? — Yes.

i.’ion. Mr. UotbiicA.] So that it still belongs to the Hudson’s Bay Company?
— It always has belonged to the Hudson’s Bay Company, when it hm been
occupied.

i.5()i. It just now belonged to Labrador: — LTpon the coast of Labrador; we
have establishments upon the coast of Labrador.

i,59-.>. Mr. Biackhum,] Are these posts sometimes in Labrador, and some-
times in the Hudson’s Bay territory P — Tlicy are moved as circumstances may
render advisiible.

1.503. Mr. Roebuck.] But they are always under the command of the Hud-
son’s Bay Comp.iny ? — Yes.

1594. So that wherever they are moved to they belong to the Hudson’s Bay
Company t— Hudson’s Bay establishments are under the control of the Hudson’s
Bay Company, but there are other establishments in the immediate neighbour-
hood.

1595. Chairman.’] Is there any arrangement with the government of Labra-
dor, by which you use that territory for your purposes 7 — It is open for any-
body.

1596. In truth it is practically unoccupied? — Yes.

1,597. Mr. Roebuck.] Will you allow me to read to you another passage:
” There are some extensive tracts xii country in which the means of subsist-
ence are scnnty in the extreme. In the region lying between Lake Superior
and Lake Winnipeg, the natives, during the winter, can with difficulty collect
enough of food to support life. In the country lying immediately north of
the Canadas, though fur bearing animals are still comparatively numerous, and
the trade consequently valuable, the poor Indians have at all times a hard
fight against famine. In this tract of country fish is at all seasons scarce, and
in winter the »ole dependence of the natives for subsistence is placed upon
rabbits (the most wretched food upon which to exist for any time that can pos-
sibly be conceived), and when these fail the most fri;>htful tragedies at times
take place. Parents have been known to lengthen out a miserable existence l)y
killing and devouring their own offspring ; ” do you believe that r — That is an
exaggerated statement.

1 598. Did you ever know a book called ” The Life of Thomas Simpson ” ? —
I did.

1599. By whom was it written? — It was written by Mr. Thomas Simpson,
I believe.

i6oo. And if that is an extract from Mr. Thomas Simpson’s book, you say it
is an exaggeration?— I do not know what part of the country he speaks of.

1601. Between Lake Superior and Lake Winnipeg?— There is a very thin
population there.

ifioj. Who was Mr. Thomas Simpson?— Mr. Thomas Simpson was a distant
relative of mine.

I lioj. Was not he a long time in the Company’s service ?~ No.

1604. Was

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON’S BAY COMPANY. 85

1(104. Was not he n lon/^ time in that country r — No ; when I (ay not a long
tinu’, I Hpeak comparatively. 1 think lie may liuve lieeii six or seven } cart in the
country alto^lher, i>r seven or eight years with me.

i(io.<;. You Nay that that siatement made hy him (because you say tlie life is written by himselOi is an exaggeration r — Yes ; bet^veen Red Uiver and Lake Superior, which I b<'lieve is the tract of country he speaks of, tlie population is exceedingly thin, and never was numerous. I ()()(). Do you know a book called " Ballanlyne's Hudson's Day''?— Yes, I have read it. I (toy. In that book thrre ix this statement : "At these posts the Indians are frequently reduced to cannibalism, and the Comimny's people have on more than one occHsiott been obliged to eat their beaver skins; this was the case one winter in Peel's River, a post within the Arctic Circle in charge of Mr. U«ll, a chief tnider in the service ; and 1 remember well reading in one of his letters, that all the fresh provision tbey had been able to procure during the winter wan two squirrels and one ci-ow ; during this time they had existed on a quantity of dried nrieat which they foitunately had in store, and they were obliged to lock the gates ol the fort to prewrve the rrmain<(er from the wretched Indians, who were eating each other outside the ualls } the cause of till this misery was the entire failure of the iibhcries, together with great scarcity of wild animHls. Starvation is quite common anioni; the Indians of those distant regions ; and the scraped rucks, divested of their covering of tripe de roche, which lesembles dried sea- weed, have a sad meaning and melancholy appearance to the travellers who journey through the wilds and bolitudes of Rupert's Land"r — Yes; Mr. Ballan- tyne never was in that country ; he dues not know the country. The cases of cannibtilism are very rare indeed. 1 G08. I will read to you a ver]- short passage, and ask you whether it is a true description of Mr. 'I'hnmas Simpson: " No man in the Company's service had such opportunities as he enjoyed of becoming acquainted with their management, and none was better aide to appreciate its effects ;" is that an accurate description of Mr. Thomas Simpson? -No, I think not; he acted as my secretary for a short time, but I do not think his judgment was very sound upon many points. 1(109. If those words come from a report on the part of the Hudson's Bay Company, then they are incorrect r — Yes ; I do not conceive that his judgment was sound upon many points. It) 10. I ask you, if those words come from a report made by the Hudson's Bay Company, still, notwithstanding that, they are incorrect? — Yes; his judg- ment is landed a little higher than 1 think it should be. 161 1. Who made that report, do you know? — I really do not recollect. 1612. There was a letter written by sir J. H. Pelly, Bart., to Earl Grey, dated " Hudson's Ray House, 24th April 1847." There is, as an enclosure in Sir John Peily's letter to Lord Grey, a report on the memorial of Mr. A. K. Isbester and others, to the Secretary of State for the Colonies ; that report, I suppose, was a report of the Hudson's Bay Company. In that report is the description which I read to you of Mr. Thoinns Simpson ; in spite of this coming from the Hudson's Bay Company, you say that it is an incorrect description of Mr. Thomas Simpson ? — Mr. Thomas Simpson was a very active, energetic man, but not a man of sound judgment upon many points. 1613. Are you aware of a complaint made by the American Government about the sale of spirits by the Hudson's Bay Company? — No, I am not. 1614. You are not aware that the American Government applied to the English Government in consequence of certain complaints made to them, the American Government, of the sale of spirits by the Hudson's Bay Company ? — No, I do nut recollect any such complaint ; there may have been one. 1615. Are you at all aware whether the numbers of the Indians are diminishing now? — No; I think the Indiana of the thickwood country are increasing in numbers ; the population there, I think, is increasing. 1616. You say that in diti'erent parts of the territory different prices are charged by the Company for the goods they sell to the Indians: — Yes. 1617. At the mouth of tlie Red River what is the per-centage of the tariff added to the cost price of goods? — I cannot say at the Red River, because it 0.25. L 3 depends Sir O Simptva, 1 Maruh iVa?. i!i i I I 8i^ Ml m '^K 't^i ii'i k'm MINUiES OF KVroENCE TAKEN BEFOUE THE Sir e. Si'nipuMi. depends entirely upon the \mce given by the Americans and others upon the frontier. I March 1857. )(ii8. Is the mouth of the Red River near the frontier? — The roouth of the Red River is close to tlie frontier. 1619. I would say the mouth of Mackenzie's River r — I cannot tell tlie precise tariff"; I have no copy of the precise tarili'; they pay a hii;her price for their goods than those ne.irer the coast ; the returns do not C(jme to market uutil about from six to seven years after outfits are issued. it)20. Mr. Edward FJIice.] That is to say, that you give less for the furs ? — We give less for the furs. i()2i. You lake more furs, in fact, for an article ? — Yes; our system of dealing Is this: Indiana require certain necessary supplies to enable them to hunt, and these we provide them witli. ■' 1(122. Mr. Roebuck.] Do you know the quantity of heads which you have impurfed per annum ?— ! do not ; they are not an article of trade ; they are given as presents. I (123 You never give so many beads for so many skins r — Never; they are entirely gratuities; beads are never traded, to my knowledge; if they are, it is ^uite contrary to instructions. ifi24. Do you know the amount of marten skins imported last year? — I do hot; I cannot tell from recollection. Awls, gun flints, gun worms, hooks, needles, throad, beads, knives, gartering ribbons, &c., are given as gratuities ; about 20 per rent, of the outfit in those articles are given as gratuities. 16U.5. So that a good knife is not considered an xrticle of commerce at all? — No ; it is given as a giatuity. i62(). And that is the statement which you make of the way in which you deal with the Indians with knives? — That is the usual practice. if)27. So that if a knife were to cost 10*., you would make a present of it ? — We never give 10-shilling knives ; they are too expeusive an article ; we cannot aflx)rd to pay siicli prices. i(i28. Do you ever give 5s. for a knife ?— No, never. 1629. Half-a-crown ? — 1 cannot tell precisely what the cost price of a knife may be, but I should think the cost price of a knife is high at half-a-crown for the Indian trade. 1630. Was not there some a^reement or some bond entered into by the Hudson's Bay Company, that they would send the criminals to be tried in Canada f — There is a concurrent jurisdiction in Canada. lC)^i. Will you answer my question ? — I am not aware of any bond, but very likely there may have been ; I do not recollect. i()32. So that tliough you have been Governor for 37 year-, nf that territory, if such a thing has occuned, it does not now oecnr to your memory ? — I do not recollect : the cases are so very lew. I ()33. In your long experience of that country are you aware of any criminals ever having been sent to be tried in Canada ?— Yes. 1(534. rtow many times? — On one occiision ; there were three men sent for trial tor murder; and I think tliat case was noticed in the former investigation of the ( 'unimittee. ''';55- C'kairm'in.] Supposing an arrangement was made by which any por- tion of the territory now administered by the Hudson's Bay Company, which miuht be supposi d to be nt for the purposes of colonisation, was separated from that administration, such a district of country, for instance, as the Re'l River, and any land in the neighbourhood of the Red River, or of the frontier of Canada, or land on the extreme west coart in the neighbourhood of Vancou- ver's Island, would there be any difficulty in the Hudson's Bay Company con- tinuing to conduct their affairs after that separation had taken place ?- i think not, because I do not believe there would be any settlement for a great length of time ; I do not believe there would be any migration into the country for ages to come. 1636. Supiiose that was lefit to be tested by experience ; suppose any country, such as it could be thought would be available for the purposes of colonisation, was taken from the administration of the Hudstm's Bay Company under a suitable arrangetuent, would it interfere in any way with the management of the affairs of the Hudson's Bay Company, or of such territory as was lel't r— I think i 1 SELECT COMMITTEE ON HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 8? think not, provided the incoming population were restricted from interfering with the fur trade. i(),S7. Do you mean in the same manner in which the inhabitants of Canada are now restricted from interfering? — No; they are not restricted from inter- fering with the fur trade uf Canada. i(>;jS. Hut with your fur trade? — Yes; provided they were so, I think there
would be no decided ohjef your Company, in yotir opinion, particularly
favourable to the management of colonists, or of any thickly settled districts ? —
I think the territory held by the Company is not favourable for settlement.

i()4(). I do not mean the physical nature of tiie territory ; but do you think it
advisable, for your own objects, tlmt you should have the administration or
management of anything which could be called a thickly peopled settlement ? —
No, I do not think it is important that we should.

1 04 1. It is rather d’tlerent from your u-iUal course, is it not? — Yea, I
think so.

if’42. For instance, do you think it would do you any harm if Vanccuver’i
Island was taken from you and made a British lolony ‘r — I think not.

i()43. Do you think tbit if there was any country on the mainland in that
cornel’ in the vicinity of Vancouver’s Island to which it was thought likely that
settlers would be attracted, it would interfere with your affairs as a trading Com-
pany, if an establishmeiit of that kind was formed there tmd separated from you ?
— 1 tliiiik it would not . So that the Americans do not accumulate furs at all: — In that part of
the country they do not.

i6( 3. Do they in any part of the country ?- No. 1 am not aware of it ; on the
sources of the Missouri a good many furs are collected.

1664. Is there not an American fur companv ? — No, I think not; there was
an American fur company ; it was broken up long ago.

it)6.v }Ar. Charles Fiizwilliam.] Within the last two months? — No, wiihia
the last few years.

1(166. Mr. Addtrtry.’] In reply to a question put by the Chairman, you stated
that the Company would not object to any settlement west .tf the Kocky Moun-
tains, provided such settlers were restrained from interfering with the rights of
the Company as to the fur trade ? — I think so.

1667. Will you describe the nature of the restraint which you «ould suggest?
— ^’I hat they should not be allowed to interfere in the fur trade, but confine them-
selves to agriculture or other pursuits.

i6t)8. Do you mean, then, that the settlers west of the Rocky Mountains
should be bound t<» maintain their own settlement in a fur-bearing condition ? — No; tlie country adapted lor settlement is not a fur-bearing country. 1669. Then what would be the nature of the restraint which you tliink the Comjiany would consider necessary ? — That the settlers should not go into the fur-bearmp countries 1670. The restraint would only apply to other portions of tiie district claimed by the Hudson's Bay Company ?— Ves. 1671. Do you consider that the Company v\oulu have a right or interest iu making any restrictions upon the settlement of the country itself west of the Rocky Mountains- — No, I think not. 1 672. The settlement of that part of the country might be effected with no injuiv to the Hudson's l!ay Company, without any restrictions as to the territory itself? — Provided they did not interfere «ith the iiir trade. 1673. Mr. Edward EUice.'] Would the restriction of dealing with the Indians be suHicient for your purpose ?— Yer it wouhl, 1 think. 1674. ^t. Adder ley. ~\ The country to be settled, west of the Rocky Moun- tains, might be settled free from any conditions relative to that country itself? — Except as regards the fur trade. 1675. Chairman.'] How do you manage to prevent the Canadian traders now from introducing spirits into the territories of thL- Hudson's Bay Company, along that great extent of frontier?— They cannot pass through thi; country without our assistance. 167*1. Is that difficulty of communication sufficient to enable you practically to prevent the trade in spirits ? — Yes, decidedly. 1677. 1 suppose there is some smuggling in the districts immediately in the neighbourhood of the settled countries? — I think there is no smuggling in the territory of the Hudson's Bay Company, in the district of country over which they claim an exclusive right of trade, except at Red River. 1678. When you say no smuggling, do you mean that there is none of any consequence, or none at all ? — I believe there is none. 1679. Lord Stanley.] You have posts beyond your own territory, have you not, in Canada ? — Yes ; we have establishments all the way down the St. Law- lence. 1680. Chairman.] SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 89 16S0. Chairman.] Have you gone on in harmony with the Canadians and tlie Canadian Governinent ? — Perfectly so. ifiSi. Mr. Itoebiick.] In that census which you have given in, is there an account otthe numbers of the half-breeds in the Red River Settlement? — Yes ; 8,000 is tlie whole population of Red River ; that is the Indian and half-breed population. KiS-i. Can you give ■ notion of how many of those are half-breeds? — About 4,000, I thinK. 1683. Can you tell ^ Committee whether those half-breeds are improving in their intelligence? — 1 think they are. 1684. Have not the Company established schools there? — Yes, there are schools. 16S5. Do not the half-breeds go to those schools? — Many of them do, especially the half-breeds of European parentage. i()8(i. Since they have gone to those schools have you found the half-breeds as submissive as they were before r— Yes, I think they are fully ; more so. i(i87. So that they do not give you any more trouble than they used to do ? — We iiave little or no trouble with them. 1688. They do not demand free trade in furs ; you never heard of such a tiling !* — 1 hey do not demand it, but they practise it ; many of them do. ifiSi). Have you found the free trade increase since the instruction of the people increased?— No, I do not find that since the encouragement to trade has increased they have been extending their operations in that way. i()00. Do you mean to say that the free-trading has not increased of late years ? — Not very materially ; they have been in the habit of trading, more or less, lor a great many years ; perhaps there may be more engaged in it recently than there were a few years ago. i6i)i. So that the increase of education at the present moment has not at all increased the desire of the people to have communication with Auierica ? — No, I am nut aware that it has ; I am not aware that there is any particular desire to connect themselves with America. I tip-.'. I mean to trade with America? — To trade in what? iGpj. In all commodities?— I believe there is very little trade at present going across the frontier. 16(14. ^^rs yoti at all aware of any increased desire on the part of those people to carry on trade with the Americans ? — No ; I am not aware that there is any increased desire, itio"). So that we may take it as your statement that there is no increased desire on the part of that j)opulation in that respect ? — ^They have more frequent communication with the United States than heretofore, inasmuch as they have larger dealmgs. u'h)6. Mr. Edward FMice.] That is not in furs? — Not in furs: principally in buffalo robes, and a very few furs. iO()7. Mr. Roelmck] What do they give to the Americans ? — They take cattle from Red River ; buttalo robes, and a small quantity of tallow and horses ; I think those are the principal articles. it)()8. Do the Indians of the Red River Settlement wish to trade with the Americans ' — \ think not. i6i)(). I mean the pure Indians? — The pure Indians, I think, principally deal witii us. on their part to conduct trade with the boundary line; they principally deal 1700. You have found no desire not across the their desire to have communication with respecting that? — I think not; there is Americans ? — No with us. 1701. Ikit I want to know about the Americans : have you any proof nothing- to prevent their having it if they have any desire. 170J. Mr. Kdunrd Ellice.] Do not ihey like to sell their furs to the best bidder •— Yes, tliey go to the best market. 1703. Chairman.'] And I suppose they would get spirits wherever they could find iheiu '. — Yes, I think they would. 1 704. Are the fur-beariug animals on the increase or otherwise, in the Hudson's Bay territory, speaking generally ? — 1 think towards the southern frontier they are on the decrease. o.^,";. M 1705. Take Sir G. Simpson, 3 March 1857. P ■'M ■f 1 ; il DO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Ty\KEN BEFORE THE ■1] Hit !;'■ Sir O, Simpson. * March 1 857. 1 705. 'lake the whnle together ? — In the northern part of the country we nurse the country very mucli, and the country has improved and is much richer in fur-bearing animals than it was 20 years ago. I70<":. Taking it altogether, is the export of furs increasing or decreasing ■ — It is larger now than it was at any time within my recollection. 1707. It is the most valual)le fur trade in the world, is 't not: — I think so. 1708. A great deal larger than the Russian fur trader— Yes. 1709. Mr. Cirogaii] You stated that in the form of the lease of land, one of the clauses wa«, that the settler should endeavour to encoura;je the Christian ri'ligion ? — Yes. 1710. What is the meaning of that covenant? — I do not know; I do not recollect the covenant. Perhaps you will draw my attention to it. 1711. You read a passa.

1747. Mr. Groi/an.] What privileges or rights do the^native Indians possess
strictly applieable to themselves ” — They are perlectly at liberty to do what they
please : we never restrain Indians.

0.25. M 3 1748. Is

Sir C. Simptm.
2 March 1857.

,«■■

I i

92

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

i’i

Sir O. Simpson. 1748. Is there any difference between their position and that of tlie half-

breeds ?— None at all. They hunt and fish, and live as they please. They look

3 March 1857. to us for their supplies, and we study their comfort and convenience as much as
possible ;■ we assist each other.

1749. Lord Statilei/.] You exercise no authority whatever over the Indian
tribes ?— ^None at all.

17.50. If any tribe were pleased now to live as the tribes did live before the
country was opened up to Europeans ; that is to say, not usinp^ any article of
European manufacture or trade, it would be in their power to do so t — Perfectly
so ; we exercise no control over them.

17.51. Mr. Jiell.l Do you mean that, possessing the right of soil over the
whole of llupert’t’ ‘ “nd, you do not consider that you possess any jurisHiction
over the inhabitant , A that soil ? — No, I am not awaie that we do. We exer-
cise none, whatever right we possess under our charter,

175:. Then is it the case that you do not consider that the Indians are under
your jurisdiction when any crimes are committed by the Indians upon the
Whites r — They are under our jurisdiction when crimes are committed upon the
Whites, but not when committed upon each other ; we do not meddle with their
wars.

‘ 753- What law do you consider in force in the case of the Indians commit-
ting any crime upon the Whites ; do you consider that the clause in your license
to trade, by which you are bound to transport criminals to Canada for trial,
refers to the Indians, or solely to the Whites ? — ^To the Whites, we conceive.

1 7.54. Mr. Grogan.’} Are the native Indians permitted to barter skins inter se
from one tribe to another? — Yes.

^755- There is no restriction at all in that respect ? — None at all.

17.56. Is there any restriction with regard to the half-breeds in that respect?
— -None, as regard dealings among themselves.

1757. Lord Jolin Ri(,ssell.] Supposing any person was to come from the
United States to trade with them, would you interfere ? — We should oppose it
by every meuns in our power, but not by violence.

17.58. By what means would you prevent itr— By giving higher prices, or
watching tlie Indians.

1759. But you would not drive away such a person ? — No.

1 760. Mr. Orogan.] Have you ever seized and confiscated the goods of parties
who were trading in that way with the Indians? — If it has been done, it has
been of very rare occurrence ; I do not recollect the circumstances.

17G1. It is stated in these papers that an instance occurred where the goods of
some of the settlers were seized and confiscated on the suspicion that they
were intended for the purpose of trade with the Indians ? — It has been of such
rare occurrence that I have not the least recollection of it.

1 762. You stated on Thursday that the price of land to a settler was 7 s. d d.
an acre r — From .5 s. to 7 s. 6 d. an acre.

1763. That is at the Red River Settlement? — Yes.
1 “04. Is that price ever exacted ? — Very rarely.

176,5. If you practically give the land free, why is it held out to the world
that you demand 7 s.G d. .’ — We consider ourselves proprietors of the soil.

1766. Has the 7 s. (id. ever been paid ? — It has been paid.

1767. Lord Staiilci/.] You claim the right to impose that price, but you do
not impose it in every case : — That is so.

I ~66, Mr. Edward EUke.} But inasmuch as it has been the interest of the
Company to settle the land as fast as possible, they have withdrawn from taking
til*’ price, because they thought it for the Company’s interest r — Yes.

1769. Mr, Grogan.] What amount raoy the Company ever have received
from settlers in that way by the sale of land ? — I think from the beginning of
time it does not exceed from 2,000 /. to 3,000 /.

1 770. Within your own government can you say « hat sum has been re-
ceived ?— I cannot tell from recollection, but I think under 3,000 /.

5771. In what way was that money applied? — It was the property of the
Co;npany.

) 772. It was applied to the general funds of the Company ? — Yes ; part of
the time it went to the estate of Lord Selkirk ; Lord Selkirk was then the pro-
prietor of the soil.

1773. I asked

.SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON’S BAY COMPANY. 93

1773. I asked you, withia the time that you had been Governor, am I to
understand that the sum of 3,000/. has been received from settlers for the pur-
chase of land ? — Yes.

1774. Since your own government ? — Since my own government.

1775. Mr. Edward Ellice.’] Is that since the year 1834? — I think not so
much since the year 1834

17/6. Previously to 1834 the Red River Settlement belonged to Lord Selkirk,
did it not ?— Ves.

1777. It had been sold a long time previously by the Hudson’s Bay Company
to his Lordship for the purposes of colonisation ? — Yes.

1778. He re-transferred it to the Company in 1834? — Yes.
177(). And you paid his Lordship for that acquisition r — Yes.

1780. Mr. Groff an.] You stated that the sum of 3,000/. had been paid by
settlers for the jiurchase of land : — I think so.

1781. To whom was that money paid? — Partly to Lord Selkirk or the heirs
of Lord Selkirk, and partly to the Company.

1 78J. Can you say how much was paid to the Company ? — I cannot from
recollection.

1783. Was there anything paid to the Company? — Yes.

1784. 100/.? — I think so; more than that.

178.5. 1,000/. r— Perhaps not 1,000/. ; or possibly it may be 1,000/.

1786. Did that go into the general funds of the Company, or was it applied
to any other purpose : — I think it went into the general funds of the Com-
pany.

1787. It was not applied in the construction of roads: — No; monies ‘vere
given from time to time for the construction of roads.

1788. From the funds of the Company ? — No ; from the general funds. There
is an import duty of 4 per cent, chargeable upon all goods imported into the
settlement of Red River. The Hudson’s Bay Company are the principal
importers, and they pay the largest jjortion of that duty.

1789. Ain I to understand that the amount of that duty is expended upon
roads? — It is expended for public purposes — roads, and bridges, and schools,
and in various other ways for public purposes.

1790. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Is it the fact that the Company pay 4 percent,
upon all their imports into the colony for that purpose? — That is the fact.

1791. Mr. Grtigan.] Then did the sum which you spoke of as having been
};fiven by the Company to the schools come from this source ? — It is without
reference to this sourcf.

1792. Then the money which you have now spoken of derived from the
customs of the country, and being given in aid of schools, is additional to the
sum you have already mentioned as having been paid by the Company in aid of
schools ? — Yes.

1 793. Can you give the Committee any estimate of what the amount of that
exjienditure on roads and public improvements would be ? — No, I cannot. Per-
haps GOO/, or 700/. a year.

1794. You described the country about the Ked River as being very pro-
ductive ? — Yes, upon the banks of the river.

17().> Hut you stilted tlmt your impression was that the land beyond a mile
from the river was not so g”od ?— It is not so good.

179O. On what is that opinion based? — Upon experiment ; trial. It has been
tried and found not good, and discontinued.

1 797. Mr. Gladstone] I did not ciuito clearly understand you whether the
price of 7 a. (if/, per acre or 5,*. per acre still purports to be the rule of the
Company ? — That is the rule of the (‘ompany. We sell very little land. Our
sales of land from the beginning of time, I believe, are only from 2,000/. to
3,000 /.

17Q8. But the settlements are very much more considerable than would be
indicated by such a price ?— Decidtuily.

1799. In point of fact, then, a very small portion of land has been sold? —
Very small.

1 8(10. lias a long time elapsed since any price was received for land at the
Red River r — I think there has been very little money received for land at the
Red liiver for several years.

o,’25. M3 1801. Have

Sir O. ISimpton.
t March 1857.

.«»’

i^

94

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

m

Hiilii

W.

iilii^

SirC. Simpum. iSoi. Have several years elapsed since, in any instance, a price was received
for land to the best of your remembrance I — If money has been received for lands

a March 1857. it is to a very small amount. If a person retiring from the service expresses a
desire to go to lied Rivor to settle, we say, “In that case you must become a
purchaser of land.” And he may purchase his .’iO acres, and pay down 25 per
cent, upon the amount.

1802. Supposing an application is made for land, what consideration governs
the authorities uf the Company in determining whether to sell or whether to
grant ? — The means of the parties generally.

1 803. If you think tliem able to buy then you sell : — Ves.

1804. If you do not think them able to buy then you grant? — They squat ;
we never disturb anybody.

1 805. Then you do not make grants of land f — We give them grants when
they apply for them, but they rarely apply.

1800. Then, do you encourage squatting? — We cannot prevent it.
iRo;. Do you endeavour or desire to prevent it? — No ; if the people cannot
aflbrd to pay for land, we cannot interfere with them.

1808. Lord John Jiussell.] How do you prevent disputes between two squat-
ters ! — We never have any disputes upon the subject ot lands.

1809. Mr. Gladstone.} Is that owing to the abundance of the land ? — Yes.

1810. Mr. Adderiey.] Are there many squatters? — They are nearly all
squatters

. 1 8 n . Out of how many ?— The population is 8,000.
i8r2. Are those H,000 squatters ? — No; some have paid.

1813. What proportion of the 8,000 do you suppose have paid?— The whole
receipts for land, from the beginning of time, are certainly under 3,000 /.

1814. Can you tell us at all, in round numbers, what proportion of the families
who have settled at the Red River Settlemenr, have paid for land ? —Nineteen
twentieths have not paid.

181/;. liow do you reconcile the statements you have just made as to the
mode of disposing of laud with your answer to Question 1217, in which you said
that land was granted at sums varying from 5^. to 7^. 6d. an acre, not in fee
simple, but under leases of 999 years ? — The parties frequently set themselves
down on land without consulting us ; we never disturb them.

i8«6. I asked you, in Question 1207, ” If I wanted to buy land in the Red
River Settlement, upon what terms could I buy it ?” Your answer was, ” Five
shillings an acre ?” — Yes.

1817. Am I to understand that if I applied for it for nothing I should get it,
equally? — If you were to squat, we should not, in all probability, disturb you.

1818. You said that free grants were given to those who applied for them ?
— Yes.

1819. Squatters do not apply for free grants, do they : — We point out the
situations where they may squat ; we do not give them titles unless they make
some arrangement for the payment.

1820. Are we to imderstand that squatters squat under terms of agreement
with the Company ? — Yes ; very frequently.

i8ai. Mr. Roebuck.] Then why are they called squatters? — A man without
means, coming into the country, says, ♦’ I should like to settle there, but I have
not the means of (laying ;” we say, ” There is no “objection to your settUng
there.”

nS2J. Mr. Adderiey.’] Are there settlers in the Red River Settlement who
squat without any agreement with the (.’ompany ? — Many.

1823. Am I to understand Ihat a great proportion of what you call squatters
have squatted under an agreement with the Company? — No.

1 824. May we understuml distinctly what you mean by the word •’ squatter “?
— A man who comes and sets himself down upon land without title.

1 8 25. Is it possible that a squatter should settle under distinct terms of under-
standing with the Company, even though he does not pay for his land ?— Yes ;
very likely a man without means would say, ” Where can 1 settle ?” We should
point out ascertain district of country which we thought desirable, and the best
situation for settlement.

1 826. Are there many squatters in the Red River Settlement who had their
location pointed out by the Company, and who paid nothing for their land P —
Many.

1827. Is

SELECT CO.MMTTTEE ON THE HUDSON’S BAY COMPANY. 95

1827. Is thut the case with the majority of them? — I think the majority of
them have settled themselves down where they liked, and we could not pre-
vent it.

1828. ‘Vithout asking the Company r — Yes.

18,29. i . Bell.] Then you menn that the difference is, that, where they
settle wiihtiut paying for the land, they have no agreement ‘. — They have no
agreement.

1 830. And they have no title ; when they apply for land and pay for it, then
they have a title? — Yes.

1831. Mr. Adderley.] When the Company assign a territory in tho nature of
a free grant, is there anything paid in the way of license duty r — No, nothing.

1832. Do any people settle in the Hudson’s Bay territory upon licenses,
without a payment per acre r — No, I am not aware that they do.

1S33. Mr. lioebuck.] Is that the form under which lands are granted {handing
an indenture to the rritnes.i) ‘: — Yes, I think this is it.

1 834. Mr. Edward FAlice.] Is that the Company’s grant or Lord Selkirk’s
grant ? — This is the Company’s grant.

183.5. What is the date of it r— March, 1844.

1836. Mr. Roebuck.] Is this indenture the title by which a person holds land
who buys it r — It is.

1837. Amongst the engagements of the buyer, is there one that he will not
part with any portion of the land ? — The conditions are there; I cannot call to
mind the precise conditions.

1 838. Then though you have been 37 years governor of that country, you
do not know the conditions upon which land is granted ? — I have been very
little resident during that time in Ued River; there has been usually an officer
in charge of Red River, who is styled Governor of Assiniboia.

1839. Are you aware that this is one of the engagements of the buyer, that
he “shall not nor will at any time during the said term,” which is 999 years,
” underlet or assign, or otherwise alienate, or dispose, or part with, the actual
possession of the said laud hereby demised, or any part thereof, for all or any
part of the said term, or any interest derived under the same, without the con-
sent in writing of the said Governor and Company for the time being first had
and obtained ‘” ? — Yes ; that is a clause in it.

1 840. Were you aware tliat that was in the indenture ? — Yes.

1841. So that when a party buys land of you he cannot sell one particle of
that land, or even let it r — Yes ; but we never object to it.

1 842. This is your indenture r —Yes ; that is our indenture.

• 843. Does that, in your view, tend to promote the settlement of the
country?- 1 do not think it can materially affect the settlement of the country.

1 844. Do you lancy that depriving a man of the power of alieniiting any part
of his land, or even underletting it, conduces to the settlement of the country ?
— I do not believe that the settlers of the Red River pay much attention to the
terms of their title-deeds.

184,5. Do you fancy that preventing a man from underletting, from selling or
parting with any portion of his interest in the land, contiuces to the settlement
of the country r — No ; I do not think it does.

1 846. Do you think it hinders the settlement ? — I think it does not hinder it
in the Red River, because there are no applicants for land.

1847. Mr. Edfvnrd Eftice.] With reference to the question which the Chair-
man put to you just now, with regard to the territory being colonised, I think
your answer was that you did not consider that the colonisation of any part of
the territory wliich the Government might think proper to reserve for that
purpose would be prejudical to the fur trade, if the exclusive right was pro-
perly protected r — Ves ; I think it would not be prejudicial.

1848. By the exclusive right being protected you mean the trade of the
Indians being protected ?— The fur trade with the Indians.

1849. With regard to the cases of starvation, I presume that the means of
the Company in supporting the people in the territory very much depend upon
the produce of the l)ufFalo hunt and upon tl)e crops raised at Red River r — Yes,
the produce of the chase and the products at Red lliver

1 850. Would it be impossible for the Company to umiertake to provide for
the general population throu;ihout the country in tiroes of scircity? — Quite
impossible.

0.2,5. M 4 1851. Mr.

Sir C. Si npiun.
a March <8j7. m iff I)fi MINUTRS OF EVIDENTE TAKEN HEFOUE TMR Sir f>, Siniptoti.
« March iSa?.

,11 :

III i

;i ;

1 a

:

I’sii

III

iS,”)!. ‘Mr. Roehuvk.} Do the buffaloes extend to the Arctic circle* — Tlie
priiirie buffalo does not ; he is conrined to the prairies ; the musk ox is to be
iound in the Arctic circle.

185J. What proportion of the food of the iidiabitants is supplied by the musk
ox r — It is very small : it is ontirt’ly confined to that purt of the country.

1853. [n fact, you may put it out of consideration aitogetin’r f — Yes.

iS,’;4. Therefore, your answer that the food of the country chiefly depended
ujioii buffaloes was not correct? — The foixl of the prairie country is butialo ; the
food of the thickwood country is principally tisii.

1 8,1/). Mr. Kditanl El/ice.] Is not pemican almost the staff of life of the ser-
vants of the Company in all i)arts .’ — For transport.

iSM’. A’r. Jiovlmck.] What is pemican ? — Pemican is a compound of buffalo
meat and tallow ; it is a portable provision, principally used in travellinc;.

18,57. Have you formed any idea of the quantity of pemican which is manu-
faciurcd in that country per annum ? — Pcrhajts from 2,000 to 3,000 cwt. per
annum ; some years more ; sometimes less.

i8-,8. And you have told us that there are 5r),(K)0 inhalntants r — East of the
mountains there are about 55,000 ; of those about 25,000 are Indians living upon
buffalo meat principally, and 30,000 live principally upon fish ; that is to say,
fish and rabbits.

i8,5f). Mr. Edward Ellice.”} But the means of existence of the servants of the
Company depend upon provisions taken to the different posts from other parts .-
— Yes, and the fish they are able to collect ; they live very much upon fish
throughout the country.

i860. Has that deed which is before the Committee ever, practically speaking,
been made use of by the Company to restrain settlement at the Red Uiver r —
Never.

i86i. Mr. Roebuck.’] What is the use of the deefl, then • — It is so very little
used that it is of no value, in fact ; nineteen-twentieths of the people have no
title ; they squat and set themselves down.

1862. yupposin? a dozen people were to start from Canada determining to
settle in the Red River Settlement, would they be at all impeded by the Com-
pany? — I think not

1863. And if instances are biou;;ht forward of great impediments being
thrown in the way, you never ha”e heard of them ? — There has never been an
instance to my knowledge ; they srjuat and set themselves down wherever they
please.

1864. Have the Company ever ejected anybody? — Never to my knowledge.
18(15. Mr. Groi/ati.] If an emigrant, as Mr. Roebuck describes, come from

Canada to the Red River Settlement, and be anxious to purchase a partly-
improved land which some squatter hnd been \i\mu, would your Company
interfere to prevent the transfer of the land ? — No.

iStit). VVould it be necessary to ask your permission r —We usually enter all
such transfers in a transfer book when the parties apply ; but if they do not
choose to apply to us we cannot ^lelp it.

1867. Is there any fee for that entry V — None.

1 Sti8. Then is not the practical effect of such a deed as has been read to pre-
vent any person taking such a deed from you ? — 1 think that it is not.

1869. If a man may squat on the land, and hold undisputed ])Ossession of the
part that he squats upon from you or from any one else, and if he may transfer
that land to another person without obstruction, why should he take a iked from
you ? — That other party would not be disposed to pay unless he could have
some title.

1 870. Mr. Gladxtotie.] Then the restriction is operative, if so, is it not ; if a
purchaser from a Red River settler will not be disposed to pay unless a title is
given, and if, in order to make a title, it is necessary, as it plainly must be, to
show the consent of the Company, then the clause requiring the consent of tin-
Company is an operative clause?— The cases of the purchase of land are so very
rare that there is scarcely a case in |)oint.

1871. Lord John RiLsselL] Is that deed ever made use of now, or is it dis-
use|ilicationK Imving Ix-cn made by thoHC who Sir O. Simptom.

lioUl without (Ih’U ?— No ; applications are not onually nindf for (U-cds j an ap-

|)li(‘ation for a dft-d is a very iinu»tual tiiiiif<. a March 1857. 1874. They an- gutisticd to hohl the land without a deed .' — Yes. 187.';. Mr. 6';y,(/(/«.] I understood you to explain t«) lis that there was n cer- tain annual sum received by the Company as duties of customs, vijs., four per (;ent. r — Paid by the Conipatiy. iS7(i. To whom t — To the treasury of the Red River. 1877. Is the treasury of the Red River part and parcel of the Company? — No. 187s. Is not the government of the Red River Settlement, and of course the treasury, as a part of that government, a part and parcel of the Hudson's Bay establishment ; — No ; it is in the hands of the settlers themselves. 1879. Am I to understand you, then, that the Company paj four per cent., as well as the ]mblic : — '1 hey do. 1880. They paid that amount on all goods imported into the Red River Settlement to the local municipality of the Red River Settlement ?— Yes, decidedly. 1881. Which money is employed in local imi)rovement8 ■ — Yes. 1882. Is there any establishment by the Company or by the Red River Settlement, whereby if a settler wished to send a letter, for instance, he couLd do it ? — Tliere is a postal communication through the United Slates. 1883. How is it to get there? — Ihe United States are close upon the border. 1884. How many miles is it? — About .')0 miles ; there is constant communi- cation with the frontier. 188,5. If therefore a letter written at A^siniboia finds its way to the frontier of the United States, the United States take care of that letter a-d \vill forward it to its destination as far as it goes through their territories ? — Yes. i88t). Mr. Edward Ellice.] 'Ihere is a regular post, is not there? — Yes, twice a month. 1887. Mr. Groffan.] Who maintains that regular mail ?— The United States Government. 1888. Is there any mail or jiost, or despatch of any kind, maintained by the- Hudson's Bay Company in their territories? — ^I'here are several expresses in the course of the season. i88g. Is there any mail or post or despatch maintained by the Hudson's Bay Company for the accommodation of the settlers or the public ? — Yes, there is. 1 8()o. Will you descrilie it ?— By canoe during the season of open water, and I think there are three or four expresses in the interior in the course of the winter. 1891. In the event of a settler wishing to send letters or anything of that sort by those des|)atches, can he do so ? — Decidedly. 1 8o'_>. Is he charged for it .’ — There is a very small charge : I forget what.

1893. But he is charged for it ? — There is s(miething, I think.

1804. Mr. Edward Ellici.] Is there a regular post maintained by the settlers
between Red Hiver and Pembina?— No, there is no regular jiost ; at least I am
not aware that there is.

189,5. ‘Sir. Jiocbuc/t.} I have a letter in »”y ‘■:.:.d which is to the following
effect: “My dear Sir,— As by tlu’ new regulation regarding the posting of
letters, it will be necessjiry that Mr. McLaughlin should send u]) his letters
open lor my perusal, a thing which cannot be jigrceable to him, will you have
the goodness to tell him thiit in his case I shall consider it quite sufficient his
sealing the letters in my jir« scnce without i:ny jieiusal on my part, and for that
])ur])ose I shall call in at your house to-morrow evening. HelieA’c me, &c.,
li. Lane.” ‘1 hat is dated ‘JUth December 1844 ? — It was quite unauthorised.

1 8()(). W’ho was Mr. Lane ? — Mr. Lane was u clerk then in the service of the
Conijjany.

l^97. What does he mean by the new regulation ; he says, ” as by the new
regulation regarding the jjosting of letters”? — It was no regulation of the
Company.

0.25. N 1898. Do

9«

MiNUiEs OF i:viin:NCE taken before the

Sir 0. .SiM/UM.
i March 1857.

m

i ‘

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1

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1 8i)S. Du you nicnn to any that tlicrc wtut no irgulntion f Then* wna no
re^ulatiofi witliiii my rcoolU-c-tioii ; there may liuvc Ihtii a local rt^ulation.

1 81)9. Do you mean to say that you, beiuK Koveriior of that territory, if that
was a n’gulatioii, you are iKiioraiit of it r — Yen ; there whh no regulation to that
effect that I recolhet. I whh governor of that coiintry, and superintendent of
the whole of tlie affairs of that country, but there waH u lu<;al governor, who conducted tlie atfairs of tlie district of Assiidhoia. 11(00. Mr. Edwunl FJlice.] 1 think we have hiul it before in evidence that the government of AttHiniboia eomptiites the ^ettlenii-nt of Red River ; that there is u s«'j)arate governor there, who ri'sidcs there, atid who governs all things within a riidiun of 50 miles: the colony being a Hettlement of itHelf, and there beiag a separate council .' — \ es. ipoi. Mr. HnehuckA Do you know a i)erson of the name of R. I^nef — Ws j he was a <'lerk in the (.'ompanv's service a good many years ago. ijioj. Where was he a clerk r — lie was at Red River. 1903. Do you know his writing; will you look at that {hamliiuj the Letter to the Witness)? — I think it is very Ukely tfiat this may be his writing; I cannot prove his writing. i()04. Did you know a p<'r«on of the name of Andrew M'Dermot ? — Yes. lOo,'}. So that there was a person of that name ?— There i» a person of that name now in the settlement. H) )(). 'Ilie letter there is written by a clerk of the Hudson's Bay Company to a person whom you know to have resided in that part of tlie world r — Yes. 1907. And that letter speaks of a set of new regulations, of which you know nothing?— Of which I am not aware unless my memory be refreshed upon the subject. 1908. Tlic letter speaks of new regulations, of which regulations ynii know nothing r — \er\- likely ; I do not know unless my memory be refreshed ujwn the subject ; 1 was very likely not in the settlement at the time. 1909. 'lliat is not on answer. 1 ask you, do you know anything of those regulations r- No. I do not ; at least I cannot call them to mind. 1910 Mr. CladAtoNc] This letter, purporting to be written by a person who was a clerk of the Com|)any, and resident in the country, and written to another person, with whose imme you are also acquainted as being that of a resident in the country, do you think it is likely that there were such regulations a« are alluded to in the letter r — I think it is very likely that there were such reguhttions, but they were not coutinu'l for any time; they were, very likely, disallowed. i()i I. Apart from this letter, did yon ever hear in the course of your expe- rience of any regulation in forci ivithin tiie Hudson's Bay Company's territories under which it was required, or under which the Company had the power to read the i)rivate letters of individuals ? — Never. I never knew an instance. 191 2. Supposing ihere was snch a regulation as is here mentioned by Mr. Lane, by whom woidd tbat regulation be nmde r -Very likely by the Council or the C/onipany'.s principal representative for the time being at Red River, but it would be disallowed forthwith. 1913. Could such a regulation, that is to say, a regulation to the eH'ect that the letters of residents must be perused by the authorities of the Company, be made by any local officer of tlie Company upon his own rcsjionsibility ? — 1 think not. 1914. Then are you at a loss t' -onceive how such n r.,V'''' '^"^ as this could have been luaile at all?— I am quite at a loss ; !■ , ■.'^i v.. of the regulation. 1915. Could such a regulation be made by the Governor and Council ? — Of Assiniboia it might ; but it is not likely to have been continued , it would not htve b'^en continued. 19) Would the Governor and Council of the colony have been competent to mafc"- 'h a regulation ? — Yes ; but I think it would have been disallowed by tiie C- V. -yduy fr-.'.iiwith. 10.7. i^^r /i'>‘. ■’MtA-.J Disallowed where?— At home.

19 (S, How bng would it ^.ake to send from there home ? — A very few
months.

1919. Then

‘(> wiw no
atitiii.
ry, if that
on to timt
icn(U-nt of
Tiior, who

ciu’e that
ver ; that
overns nil
ititelf, and

le T — V”’» ;

,’ Letter to
: i cannot

-Yes.

un of that

nmpany to
-Yes.
you know
I upon t .1′

I yoii know
shed U|)on

^ of those

leraon who
to another
resident in
jns as are
were such
fery likely,

your expe-
territories
power to

istance.

led by Mr.
Council or
River, but

effect that
iiipiiny, be
sibility ? —

1 as this
of the

uucil? — Of
would not

competent
disallowed

. very few
yig. Then

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDRciNS RAY rOMPANY. 90
i()l(). Then that is different from your answer to n>e, that it would takf three Sir G Simpton.

vcarHr— No; I never nuide sue’ .11 answer.

i().>i». Mr. aiaditonr.] Do you consider that tiie Governor and Couneil of
|{fr would have btn-n lejfally competent to luake such a regulatit)!! if th«’y
had tliou^lit fit : – I think not.

\\)i\. .Mr. (iroijitn.] I think you fol’* us, that a letter which should find its
way to tlie fronti«’r, to l’enil)ina. could U ilesjmtched tlicnce through the United
States “r — Vcs.

\\Yi2. .\t the exjieitsc and cost of the United States Oovernnicnt ? — Yes.

ii).’,,- Is tliire any provision made li, fhe GoveriKJi Mnd Councd of Assinl-
hoia for the transmission of a letter from Assiniboia itself to the frontier ? — I
tliink not.

1924. The distance, you said, was abnuf fiO miles ‘—About 50 miles.

i()’2V Is it once a week, or once a month, or once in’a season . or how often
is it tluit the mail in the United States part of (he territory is despatched? —
Once a fortnif];ht.

lyjt). .And yet there is no provision by the (iovernor and Council of Assi-
niboia for transmitting a letter regularly to the frontier at all ‘. — No ; at least I
lun nr •>« .e that there is.

“” – In Ked you a general question, whether there was any post or despatch
by ‘.1 1′ .s could be sent through the Hudson’s Bay territury. maint«ined
l)y 111* (io\. rnment, and vou said that there were canoes and boats occaxion-
ill> ■ -Yes.

I ,,S. Do those expresses, or canoes, start periodically- — They do.

i()2i;. When ? — Two or three times in the course of the season of open water,
and I think once a month (at least it w^:: so when the ^roops were there) during
Ww winter ; not .so frequently now.

1930. VVhat do you call the period of open water ?— From the month ot .May
until the month of October.

ly.ji. That is four months? — Five months.

1932. Then there are opportunities of sending letters two or thre» times
durinjt the fine Hcason ? — Yes.

1933. And (mce a month during the bad season? — 1 am not sure that the
mail is continued so frequently as once a month during the winter.

1034. Do yon know how often it is sent; my object is to ascertain the
exact information as to what mean-* of communication, sending letters for
instance, exist in the Huds-on’s Bay territory: — Through the United States
regularly.

193.’;. I do not ai^k as to the United Sti.tes? — The time occupied from Red
River to the Sanlt St. Mar}-, where there is the first regular communication, is
so long, that parties will not he disposed to send their letters in that way: for
instance, they would send them by the United States.

1936. Would that arise from the uncertainty in tlie means of .«ending tliem ■
— The uncertainty ami the length of time occupied in conveying the letters.

1937. I see in your evidence }ou state that you have travelled from Fort
William, at the head of I^ke Superior to Assiniboia. about 40 times r — Yes, I
think so.

1938. Of course yoi know that road remarkably well? — Yes, pntty well.

1939. -‘^”‘ thereMtfunlioats which now navigate to Fort William, on the
he.id ot the lake, from Canada?- No ; there is no regular steamboat commu-
nication. Ste-amboi.is have passed round on pleasure excursions.

1940. Do they ijo periodically? — No.

194;. If it were stated that they went once a week regularly, would it be
correct? — It is imt tht case.

1942. Arc til. re •steamboats of any nation that traverse the lake periodically –
—On the south-west sitle of the lake, the American side of the lake, there are
steambi ats whith pass, 1 think, once or twice a week ; 011 the north-east side
of the lake there is no trartic; there is no communication.

i()43. With threfer the upper district of country ; for instance,
the Canadians prefer the upper part above the junction of the Assiniboine
River.

1 975. Notwithstanding the floods r — Notwithstanding the floods, llie Orkney
half-caste population prefer the lower end of tlie stream.

1976. The chief part of the settlement is in a district of about 20 miles long,
is it not? — About .50 miles in length.

1977. Has it ever been wholly covered by floods: — Yes, I think so, except-
ing the higher spots, which form islands in seasons of flood.

1978. Has any attempt ever been made to improve the banks of the river to
prevent those floods • — Never.

1 979. Why not ?— Because the means of the country could not by possibility
admit of it.

1 980. The banks are not susceptilile of improvement ? — Not at all.

1981. The settlement is on both sides of tlie river, is it not .’ — It is.

1 982. lias any attempt ever lieen made to estabHsh a communication between
them by means of a briilge or otherwise? —No ; there is a ferry in use.

1983. What is the average width of the Red River: — The average width
below the forks is about (me-si\th of a mile perhaps.

1984. What is the width of the Mississippi at St. Paul’s? — Not quite so wide,
I tliiiik, or about the same width.

1985. You are aware, I sujipose, that at St. Paul’s there is a large susjiension
I am not aware that tliere is ; there was none when I jiassed there.

i((S(i. St. Paul’s is a settlement of much more recent date tlian the Red
River : — Yes.

1987. And they have now a large bridge ? — There was no bridge when I was
at St. Paid’s.

1988. \\ hy has no attemjit ever been made in the nature of a communication
by bridge at tiie lU’d Uivcr? — The cost would be too large ; there is no traffic
and no pojjuhition to justify such an outlay.

1 9S9. Have any of the smaller streams been bridged over by the Com])any ?
— Yes, many of the siuaUer streams, especially in the settlement ; they have
been bridged out of the funds of the settlement.

1990. Have the C^ompany done anything to make roads in the settlement ?
— Ihi^y have contributed their share of the duties of four per cent, upon all
imports.

0.25. N 3 1991. And

bridge :

:?!i ‘■ ‘!

li:

103

MINUTES OF EVIDENCF. TAKEN BEFORE THE

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9\t O. Bimptcm. ippi. And with that have they made roads themselvps? — With that the

settlers have made ronds.

a March 1857. uij)-‘. Ahout what number of miles of roads, should yon say, have been made

under the authority of tlie Company ? — The Company make no roads.

H)p3. Mr. Edirnrd F.llice.\ They pay for their beiria: made- — They eon-
tribute their share of the tax.

1994. Mr. Gordon.’^ You mentioned in your evidence on Thursday. “The
Company aUow the interest of the (la\ , ! tliink it is fo :r p;’r c nt , to any
parties wlio may choose to leave their money in their hands, or they will pay
their haliiuces as tliey accrue, from year to year, as ihey may desire.” Does
that aj)ply only to the servants of the Comjjany. or tloes it extend to any of the
settlers in the Red Kiver- — The servants of tiic (‘om|)ar>y

’99”). Is there anything in the nature of a bank otabiisiicd for the settlers:
— There is no bank.

1990. ‘Hien what do the settlers do with their money • — ! he settlers have
their own agents in England whom they emph)y ; a few of them. I think, leave
their money in the hands uf the ( ompany ; they are retired servants.

1997. Mv. KiiiimirJ,] In ijuestiou 1009, put by the Chairman, you were
asked, ” Do you ever encourage the Indians to resort to agriculture, under any
cifcumstances ?” and your ‘Mswer was, ” Always ; we have encouraged them by
every means in our jjower.” Will you kindly state to the Committee some of
the means which have been used “r— By (;iving them agricultural implements.
free of charge, and seed of various kinds ; seed wheat, seed j)otaloes.

109S. M ithont charge for the land? — Without charge for tite land.

199;). That has l)een done in the different Indian settlements? — Ycs; in
several parts of the country.

:2ooii. There is every facility given? — Every facility.

200 i. With reference to question 1102, with regard to the education and
Christian instruction of the Indians, are we to understand tliat the Comjjany
have adopted no means for the education ot’ the .”)5..”»7H Indians from whom
they receive their furs, and whose land they claim ; I do not refer to rhe iialf-
caste, but to the positively Indian population :— Over 25,000 of that Indian
population we have no control ; namely, the Plain tribes. They wander from
the Missouri to the banks of the Saskatchewan ; they are a bold, warlike people,
over whom we have no control.

•-‘ooj. That is a part of them ; with respect to those wiio hunt for you, you
use no means for their instruction : — There are religious missions in various
parts of the country.

•2003. \’ou coniri’tnite a very small sum, !;ut tiuit is for them to minister to
your own stations and factories, not as missionaries .’ — Yes.

2004. You give no specific help for the Indians? — Tiie country is so poor
that they cannot form settlements: tiie missions must be immediately in the
neighbourhood of thf establisliments.

■_>oii.5. Arc we to understand that the (.’onipauy give no aid specifically for
the instruction of tlie Indian chilcb-eu to the missionary scicieties who have
voluntarily undertaken it r — We are very anxious to give the Indian children
instruction ; but, the luiiians will not give up their children.

•iO(»(>. Then you would give assistance to schools and missionaries for that
purpose, although you have not done it at present ? — Yi’*.

ioi.’y. Have yon tidicn any means of getting books or’ ((huia’iion, either in
the Roman or syllabic character, for the population ?— ‘i he missionary societies
have sent otit books from time to time.

2008, Ai their own expense : -At tlnir own expense.

20011. With no assistance from yourselvo for that purpose ? — I am not
aware that there has been any.

2010. Can you tell me of any case where you have contributed for scrhool-
rooms for the benefit of the Indians? — We ar.’ ([uite rea.ly to receive Indian
children at oui* own estahlishnieuts when ti’.ey can be obtained.

2i’i 1. I do not see any record of any coniributions out of the fuiuls of the
Company for the erection of these schools ? — ‘There is n.) iuunediate ouilay con-
nected with t’.ic erection of schools at any of our establishments. We have a
regular establishment of people who do all tiie work about the establishment;
they buibl houses and erect schools, and wliatever else may be necessary.

iiOi2. At York, liavi; }()ii i.u tveuing scliool, eondueted by one of the Com-
pany’s

SELECT COMMI-fTEE ON THE HUDSON’S BAY COMPANY. 103

iiinister to

paiiy’s servants during tlie winter, for the benefit of the Indians and others
resident at tlie fort : — Ves.

JO I J. Was that formed under the direction of the Company? — Yes.

joIj. Is that earricd out at any other station? — I think ut Norway House,
and at all the ( stablishments wiiere there are missions.

j(ii.’). Do you assert that there are evening schools conducted at the expense
of tlie Company – — There is no expense connected with it. At the different
establishments where there are missionaries we promote education by every
means in our power.

20 1 (i. It would l)c very easy to enforce this at all the stations, would it not?
— Not to enforce it, but to encourage it.

JO 17. And you woilid do so ? — Yes, we would do so.

joi8. Mr. iioehiicl,-.} Is tliere a licence to freight goods granted by the Com-
pany ? Supposing tliat I, being a settler at the Ked River Settlement, wanted
to freight goods to London, is tlierc not a licence granted by tiie Hudson’s Bay
(‘omi)any to enable me to do so .’ — No, I am not aware that there is. We
freigijt all goods that eome to us if there is room in our shii)ping.

JO 10. 1 will read you a copy of a licence to freight goods. It is signed by
a Company’s officer: it is signed “Alexander Christie, chief factor of the

Honourable Hudson’s Bay Company.” *’ I hereby license , of Red

River Settlement, to car; y on the business of a freighter between Red River
Settlement aforesaid and York Factory. Provided, however, that this licence
shall be null and void for every legal jjurpose from this date if he traffic
in anything whatever beyond the limits of the said settlement, excepting
in so far as he may do so under any municipal regulation, or if he traffic
in furs within Rupert’s Land or without, or if he usurp aiiy privilege whatever
of the Hudson’s Bay Company, or if he become, or continue to be the employer,
or the agent, or the partner of any person who may traffic or usurj), or may
have tratiieked or usurj)! d as aforesaid, or of any such person’s debtor. Given
at Fort Garry this 29th day of July 1845, Alexander Christie, Chief Factor
of the Honourable Hudson’s Bay Comjjany.” Are you aware of any such
rto(‘U))ients as this {Ike same beiiiij shown to the Witness) ‘; — I am not aware of
them. I do not think this is Mr. Christie’s writing, and I never heard of the
regulation

joio. I think you are or have been governor of Rupert’s Land. In 1845,
were you at the Red IJiver Settlement? — It is very likely I was there in 1845;
1 do not exactly recollect.

joji. You had a council there, I suppose ? — Yes, in all probability.

J022. That council was held on the 10th of June ? — \ery likely.

J023. I see that you ))assed certain resoluiions at that time ; have those reso-
lutions been allowed or disallowed – — If you will allow me to see the resolutions
1 may have some recollection ot them. I catuiot exactly call them to mind.
A\ e pjiss resoluticms for our own operations.

J0J4. You do not bear in mind whether any of those resolutions were dis-
allowed or not .’ — 1 think the Company did disallow some of our resolutions,
but I forget exactly what they wire. ”

202.> Will you be kind enough to inform us why, amongst your resolutions,
you resolved this, ” That all other inii)orts from the United Kingdom for the
aforesaid settlement shall. l)efore delivery, pay at York Factory a duty of 20
per cent, on their prime cost, provided, however, that the governor of the
settlement be herel)y authorised to exempt from the same all such importers, or
any of them, from }ear to year, as can be reasonably beUeved by him to have
neither trafficked in furs themselves since the 8tli day of December 1844, nor
enabled others to tlo so by illegally or improperly supplyhig them with trading
articles of any description.” Do you recollect passing any such resolution as
that r — I do not recollect such a resolution ; it may have been so.

Joj(). In your jjrt sent view of the matter, do you think that that would con-
duce to the settlement of the country ? — 1 think it would not.

2027. iherefore, if passed at that time, it would have opposed the settlement
of the country ? — No ; I do not think it would have materially affected the
settlement of the countrj-.

2028. Not prohibiting the importation of goods, except upon a duty of 20
per cent., and that from the United Kingdom ? — I do not recollect that it was
ever enforced.

0.2.5. N 4 2029. Laws

Sir O, Simp$n.
3 March 1857.

.11 .

104

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKliN BKl’ORE THE

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Sir G. Sinipton. 2020. I.aws are made to be enforced? — But I do not think that was.

2o^;{). ‘Sh’. Kdu’itril Kllin:’] Is it so now • — Certainly not.

a March 1857. •.ioji. Has it ever heen so in your re;;ollection?–Not in my recollection. I
ne\er recollect to have heard it.

2(1.5::. If such u rule had existed, would it not have been solely for the protec-
tion of the fur trade r — Decidedly.

2033. Mr. Gladstone. \ How can you be very certain that that regulation is
not in force now ; if it apjiears to have been in force at one time without your
knowledsre, how do you know that ic may not be in force without your know-
ledge still :— I do not think it ever was in force.

2034. Mr. Itocbuclx.] \’aw do not deny that it has been in force ? — I do not
deny it. I have no recollection of it. It was disallowed” if so.

203,5. Mr. Edmird Ellia.\ But you say that if passed, it has not been en-
forced as against the importers r — No.

2036. Lord Stanlei/.] You would have known if any action had been taken
upon it : — I should have known as a matter of course.

2037. Mr. Ciladstonc] On the subject of the import duty which is j)aid by the
Company, I think vou stated that it was paid to the Treasury of the Red River ?
—Yes. ‘

2035. Is it expended under the direction of the Governor, or of the Governor
and Council ? — The Governor and Council.

2031). To whom do they render an account of the expenditure ? —There is an
officer oiled the Head of the Board of Works ; he takes the entire management
of the fund, and an account is submitted to the Council at the close of each
season.

2040. Who appoints the officer of the Board of Works? — The Council do.

2041 . Istlie money paid to the Council and by them handed to this officer, or
what is the course through which it goes ? —The officer draws upon the establish-
ment ; we are the bankers ; tlie funds are usually left in the Company’s hands ;
the proper oHicer draws upon the Company from time to time for such funds as
may be recpiired.

2042. Is the import duty paid to the Company or some officer of the Com-
pany for account of the Governor and Council of lied River r — For safe keeping,
it is paid into the t,omi)ai)y”s hands.

2043. It is ])aid into the Company’s hands, but merely by way of deposit ? —
ISIerelv bv way of deposit.

2044. Then if I understand rightly, the Company hold it, subject to be drawn
upon bv the officer of the Governor and Council of Red River ? — Yes.

204 V Does that officer, by authority of tlie Governor and Council, draw the
monev :^— Yes, at i)leasure.

20. (i. And he renders an account of the money and expenditure to the
Governor and Council :— Yes.

2047. Then the Hudson’s Bay Company hear nothing of the money, and
know nothing 01 the mode of its expenditure (—Not further than that they
have to pav their ([uota. .

■204^. But after payment they have no further concern with that money at

2041). it is disposed of by the Governor and Council of the Bed River
Settlenunt, or under their authority, just as much as it would be if the colony
were a free and ojjcn eolonv -—Decidedly.

2i!-,(‘ >Ii’- Roe/jiiri,-.] Ihe Governor of the Red River Settlement is appointed

bv the Hudson !> Bav Cumiiany, is not he r— Yes. ., , , . ,

‘ c)- 1 Mr. (llitd-‘iKiiu .] 1 believe the Governor and Counh would justify a large expenditure upon.
navigiition I- — None ; there is no trade which would justify an outlay.

20,4. Is there any trade at the present time whi«;h may not be effectually
and satisfiietorily carried ou in canoes .’—Between Canada and the interior the
trade that is conducted from Canada must be entirely l}y canoe; but the com-
munication

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON’S BAY COMPANY, lo..

munication with England is by boat from York Factory and Moose Factory, the Sir G. Simpson.
two depots upon the coast.

20,5.5. 1 was referring to the Ued River, and that part of the country.- — a March 1837.
With Canada the communication must be by canoe. With England by boat to
the coast.

2056. You have been asked questions with regard to the apjdiances of
education and civilization which yon have provided for the Indian tribes. Have
voii ever considered yourselves as a Company charged with the education or
civilization of those tribes r — No, we do not consider ourselves charged as a
Company, but wo contribute nevertheless.

20.57. If 1 understand your former evidence rightly, you have no control
over those tribes, except that of being able to exclude other traders from the
country ? — None.

2058. Are you well acquainted with the country to the west of the Rocky
Mountains”‘— Yes; 1 have travelled through that country repeatedly.

20,50. Are you able to form any opinion as to how much of it, or whether
any of it, is fit for colonization ; I speak of the nuiinlaiid ; not of Vancouver’s
Island ! -Very little of it I think is fit for settlement nnd colonization north of
49°, from the rugged character of tlie country ; it is an exceedingly rugged and
mountainous country.

2o(io. Do you mean by that, tliat the soil is unfit for culture, or that there
are no means of transport to the sea ? — There are patches of soil near tlic rivers
in certain localities where agriculture might be carried on upon a small scale ;
but generally speaking, the country is exceedingly wild and rugged and
mountainous north of 49″.

2ot)i. What are the winters there ; are they severe ? — The winters are not
so severe as east of tlie Rocky Mountains.

2062. Assuming the soil to be suitable, is it probable that wheat crops would
not ripen in that country? — I think they would not; there is too much
moisture ; it is exceedingly humid.

2063. ILive any experiments been made in the neighbourhood of the forts
there? — At Fort Langley there have been experiments made, and grain has
been raised upon a very small scale ; potatoes are very abundant ; and likewise
further north.

2064. In the event of colonization being attempted there, is it likely tliat any
difficulty would arise as regards the Indians r — The Indians are very warlike
and very numerous, and I tliink they might be troublesome to settlers in the
first instance, until they were sufficiently numerous to protect themselves.

2065. Tlie Company has had more trouble with them west of the mountains
than in the east ? — Much more trouble. They are difHcult of management.

20t)6. I think about two-thirds of the whole Indian population reside west of the
mountains? — T think about 80,000; the whole population being about 139,000.

2067. Therefore on account of those tribes, putting other di^’Rculties out of
the question, there are only some parts of the country where it would be
possible for settlers to establish themselves r — Yes.

2068. They could not do so in small numbers or at outlying posts?— They
could not.

2o6p. In the event of any part of that western territory being constituted a
colony apart from the Hudson’s Bay Company, would it be easy to mark
a boundary, so that the establishment of a colony there should not interfere
with the exclusive rights of the Company ? — I think there is no room for
a colony of any extent north of 49°, upon the west side of the mountains.
The character of the country is exceedingly rugged.

2070. In the event of any portion of the territories being set apart for
purposes of colonization hs a colony independent of the Company to the west
of the Rocky Mountains, would there be any difficulty in so defining the
boundary of such a colony as to prevent any disputes or difficulties with regard
to the point at which the rights of the Company terminated ?— You mean the
British territory I presume north of 49°.

2071. I mean, of course, the British territory? — I think there is no portion
of that country north of 49° adapted for settlement.

2072. Mr. Roebuck.] That is not the question; the question is, whether there
are any means of marking out the boundaries of the colony, supposing that a
colony should be determined upon; supposing it should be determined to make
a colony west of the Rocky ^lountains, taking the southern boundary to be

0.2.5.” O ” .’ the

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MINUTF.S OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

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a March 1857.

tlie boundarj’ bt-tween it and the United States and the eastern boundary,
the Rocky Nlountains, is there any possibility of finding a northern boundary ? —
I do not know of any other means of finding it than determining it by observation.
The country is not so marked in its cliaracter as to form any boundary.

2073. Tlieie is no river? — Tiiere is no river.

J074. With respect to the climate, you say that you have travelled in that
country ; is not the climate of America, on the west of the Rocky Mountains,
similar, in point of fact, to that of Europe, in the same latitude ? — I think
there is more moisture on the shores of the Pacific than upon ihe eastern side.

■2075. That is not my question ; my question is, whether taking latitude for
latitude in Europe, and on the west of the Rocky Mountains in America, the
climate in the same latitude is not the same: — I have been sucli a length of
time out of Kufiland, that I scarcely recollect what the climate is.

jo7ti. I am not talking of Kngland ; I am talking of Europe r — I cannot tell.

2077. We will 8|)eak of the climate of Vancouver’s Island ; do you know
that ?— Not well.

2078. Is not ir a finu chniate ? — It is a very good climate, I believe.

2oyi}. It will grow pretty nearly anything, will not it? — On the southern part
of the island.

J080. It will grow wheat r — Yes ; on the southern side of the island.

21181. And on the northern too- — The northern is a rugged, mountainous
country, wliere you can grow nothing.

2082. Rut it would not be prohibited by climate ? —There is a great deal of
moisture ; there arc torrents of rain.

2083. So there is in Etiglaud ‘! — I think there is more on the west side of the
mountains than in L”^^land.

2084. Lord John Russell.] Is the (juantity of moisture such as to prevent the
culture of wheat? — It is such as to prevent the ripening of grain, I think.

2o8j. Ml . Edward Ellue.] But at Fort Vancouver, on the Columbia, in the
Oregon, are there very fair crops ? — Yes ; never productive crops ; we used to
look upon a return of ten or twelve, as very fair crops for Oregon.

2o8ti. With reference to Fort Laugley, which is near the southern boundary
of the British territory, and where there is a fort, I think you said the other day,
that there were about KM) scpiare .niles of level ground there r — Yes, I think so.

2087. Could not a colony be planted there ? — It might be.

2088. Is there any thing remarkable in the climate tiiere different from what
it is in Vancouver’s Island ? — 1 believe there is more moisture.

2089. Nearer the mountains ?— Yes.

2090. Mr. 6’roifa;i.] You are making a comparison between Fort Langley and
Vancouvers Island ? — Yes.

2091. You say that there is rather more moisture at Fort Langley? — Yes.

2092. Does the thermometer sliow any difference in the temperature? — The
further north we go, the degree of cold is greater.

2093. I am speaking of those two situations .’ — Yes ; the one is in 50°, and
the other is in 4(J]°. («)

2094. Practically, isthehealdiere very f;reat in summer: — In the Columbia it is.
209,”,. In the part called Caledonia, tiiere is the Columbia River; that is on

the west side of tiie Rocky Mountains? — V’es.

2096. I am not speaking now of the American territory, but of the British
above 49″. Is the heat in that jiart of the country very great in summer? —
Not very groat.

2097. 1 perceive that in the account of your travel, speaking of Fort Colvile,
you speak of its being an exceedingly productive, and well circumstanced place ?
— Yes.

2098. And that what you describe as a fine season is a damp season? — Yes.

2099. That is owing to the great heat which prevails below 4!)° ?— The great
drought, the great length of time they are without rains, they are weeks and
months together without rains.

2100. Docs the same ot)servation apply to the land immediately above 49° ?
— Upon the coast there is mort; moisture than inland.

2101. Is the quantity of moisture sufiicient to destroy the ripening of the

grain? — Yes, I think so; in some seasons I think it is likely.

a 10. But

(a) This answer )iad reference to Fort Vancouver, on the Columbia Uiver.

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON’S BAY COMPANY. 107

2102. But as a general rule? — As a general rule I think the great moisture
would niiit^Tially alli’ct tl-.e crops.

JIG,]. Wiiat miiy be the distance of Fort Colvilo SDUth of the 49th degree of
latitude, tlie boundary .’—I think Fort Colviji- is about 48 or 49 degrees.

2104. About one dei^^ree southward of the boundary .- — Yes.

210,’;. Do you consider that the ditierencc of one degree would make such a
dirt’erente in the temperature of the place r — There is more moisture on the
coast than inland

2ioti. Fort Colvile is not on the coast ?— No, it is inland.

2107. I want to draw a comj>arison between Fort Colvile and the same land
on the Britisli side of the boundary. What circumstances exist to make a dif-
ference in the climate and the adaptability for colonization of the two places : —
The climate «est of the mountains is warmer, 1 think, than in the same parallel
east.

2108. Would not that part of the British dominions north of tlie 49th degree
of latitude, but in the same parallel of longitude with Fort Colvile, be equally
adapted fur colonization as Fort Colvile itself: — No; tiie climate of the west
side is warmer, there is nmch moie heat, but very little level land.

2 101). Supymsing a colony were pbinted on the 49!;h degree of latitude, quiu-
close to Fort Colvile, on the Columbia River, what circumstances exist which
would prevent thiit colony so planted lieing equally well favoured and well
circumstanced as Fort Colvile itself.- — I do not ?ee that it would be materially
prevented. I am not aware of any circumstances “hicii should cause it.

2 110. Then would this description in your judgment apply to it, “Cattle
thrive well, while the crops are abundant. The wheat, which weip:hs from G3
to Otjlbs. a bushel, yields liO or 30 returns. Maize also flourishes, but does not
rijien till the month of September. Potatoes, peas, oats, barley, turnips, melons,
and cucumbers, are ])lcntifiil.” That is the description which you give of
Fort Colvile • — Yes.

2 Ml. And you do not see any circumstances which would prevent a colony
on the iiritish territory opposite Fort Colvile being so well favoured? — No; the
climate is not so warm.

2112. Therefore it would, in your opinion, hold out equal inducements as
regards the ripening of grains and fruits as Fort Colvile itself? — No. 1 think
the climate of the Pacific is more favourable 10 cultivation than the same
parallel on the east side.

2113. Mr. Edward FMice.] I suppose if a population were found to want a
settlement of that kind, and chose to go there, they could raise crops very well
for their omu support ? — On either the one side or the other, I think ; on either
side of the mountains.

2114. Mr. Grogan.] Have any attempts ever been made to establish a
colony, or any settlement at all to the eastward of Fort Garry on the Assini-
boine, up Lake Winnipeg, Rainy Lake, or in that district? — No attempt has
been made to form a settlement at Rainy Lake.

2 11, 5. Or to the eastward of it ? — To the westward there may have been a few
settlers at Manitobah, within 40, 50, or 60 miles of Red River.

2116. In fact, there is not a sufficient population to render those localities,
which you have described as so beautiful, an object to settlers ? — That is the
fact.

2117. But if it should become an open colony, and settlers should go there,
there are no physical circumstances in the country in your judgment to prevent
their success ? — No ; I think not. The country is not favourable for settle-
ment, I think, about Red River.

2 11 8. Why ?— The crops are very uncertain.

2119. You have nothing to • adduce beyond what you have stated already ? —
No.

2120. In the extent of lantl between the Rainy Lake and Fort VVilliara, on
the Kamenistiquoia, at the head of Lake Superior, what uuiy be the height to
which the land rises ; is it 800, 1,000, or 2,000 feet, or what r — I tiiink about
800 feet above the level of the lake.

2121. Do any serious practical difficulties or impediments exist in making
that navigation, which you have traversed with your canoes, a regular course of
navigation? — I think there are insuperable ditliculties, unless the ” Bank of
England were expended ” upon the improvement of the country. Near the

0.25. O 2 height

Sir G. Simp*oti.

2 March 1857.

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Sir G. Siinpton. height of land there is no water ; tlie rivers are shoal, and the soil is bad.

I think the difHculties are w

a Mnrili i8-,7.

ry great.

2122. To how many miles ot country, in your judgment, would your present
remark apply ? — I think aliout 300 miles.

2123. .\s much SIS that? — I think so.

J 1 24. You have given the entire distance from Assiniboia to the head of
Lake Superior as about 500 miles-— Yes.

2i2,> And you think that in 300 of thosu 500 miles, there would be such
difficuhies.’ — Yes.

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Mr. fnitiam Kernaghaii, called in; and Examined.

fAT.W.Kcrnashr.n. 21 j6. Lord John Russell.] WHERE do you reside ?— At Chicago.

2127. What is your business or occupation ?— I am a General Merchant
there.

2128. Have you any statement to make with regard to the Hudson’s Bay
Company, or their territory, or their trade ? — The Chicago people arc runnin<; steam-boats now towards that part of the country. 2129. Where from, and where (0?— From Chicago to Superior City, Onto- ganan and Marquette ; steamers also ply from Detroit and Collingwood to those cities. 2 1 :iO. Mr. Edward Ellicc] Are you a Jiative of the States ? — I am an Irish- man. 2i;5i. Lord John Riisseli.] Have you any statement to make with regard to that matter? — I should like to see the trade opened u\) tliere in the Hudson's Bay country. 2132. That is to say, you uonld like to see an end put to any exclusive privi- leges ? — Yes, either in land or trade. 2133. Have you found any obstacles practically to exist to the trade which you wish to promote? — There is every opposition thrown by the Company in the way of our traders there. 2134. Of what kind? — Every oi>position. They are not allowed to trade
there. This last season 500 waggons started from Pembiuii, or the Red River
.Settlement, and sold their loa:ht; the American duty is very great.
I am not aware of any duties at Red River.

2153. I thought you spoke of the duties being paid on the goods goinii’ into
the American territory ? — What 1 mean to say is, that on the goods put at
St. Paul into the .”iOO waggons, the sellers of the goods had paid the American
duties.

21.54. Then it was the American duties which ma’le it disadvantageous, not
anything done by the Hudson’s Bay Company ?— That business was done
against the wishes of the Hudson’s Bay Company.

2I.5T. Did they impose the duties or the Americans? — The Americans.

21.5G. Mr. Gi-offan.] Am I to understand you that this caravan which crossed
from Pembina to St. Peter’s, or St. Anthony’s, purchased goods ?— They sold at
St. Anthony the productions of their own country, and they bought at St.
Anthony their groceries, wines, woollens, linens, &c.

21.57. Which had been British imports? — Some had been British imports
and some American manufactures.

21.58. And on all the British imports the American Government imposed a
duty .’—Yes.

2159. If fhey could have gone through the country under bond, the Red
River people would have saved that duty ? — Yes.
0.25. O 3 2160. Mr.

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3 March 11(57.

2l(5o. Mr. Kilward Ktlice.\ \% there an export duty in ilie States upon goods .’
— I do not know.

JKii. Then linw do yon mean that the Red River people would have saved
the (hity r— lliid tho j;oods beiii in bond. This is the first attempt of the Red
Kiver people to open 11 free trncU*.

2l(vj. Vou say tiiat the Ited River people are placed at the disiidvimtage of
this duty ; but as 1 understand yon the Rritish gonds pay going into St. Paul’s?
— Ves, nnless they go there in bond.

•JitVj. They do not pay coming from St. I’atd’s to Red River? — No; but
they had j)ai(i at New York, or at (.’hieago, before they went to St. I’uul, the
legular Anicriean duties.

•21(14. Lord John Jtits.ifil.] Vou mean, that if they were landed at Fond du
Lae. or at the head of Lake Su|>erior, tliey «ould go in bond, and not |)ay the
American duties? — If l.mded at Superior City, where there is an American
custom-house, they would iro in l>ond through our Ihitish territory without
paying duties.

21(1,5. Mr. Kdivtiid KlUcf.] If there were a road to Red River? — Yes; and
that will be done by Chicago and other people this season.

2166. If ihey could go in l)ond from Superior, and nass througii |)art nf the
territory and so escape the duty, why should noi they l»e in bond at New Vork ‘
— \u\i can pay duty at Chicago, Detrnit, New York, or at any place where
there is a custoni-Iiouse of the United States, or you can bond goods at all ports
of entry.

21(17. You said that goods could be carried to Red Uiver, goin^ througii
part of the American territory, giving bond ? — ‘Yes.

2108. Whv could not tliev go by New York in the same way, givins bond? —
They could. ”

2i()y. Tlierefore the Red River settler would not lie ))iejudic(d by (Ik duty
payable in the American territory- — He would not be if they went in bond,

21711. Mr. C/itiilis /■’itzifilliiim.] With leferenee to the 500 waggons yoa have
mentioneil, you mean that a person bought goods in the American territory
because he could get them cheaper there than from the stores of the Hudson’s
Bay (J(uiipany at Red River ? — Yes ; they have undersold.

JoiHs, 5<> die Mart Hi 1857

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MEMBERS PRESENT.

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Mr. Adderley.

Mr. Bell.

Mr. Blackburn.

Mr. Ldwurd Ellice.

Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.

Mr. Gordon.

Mr. Gregson.

Mr. Grogan.

Mr. Percy Herbert.

Mr. Kinnaird.
Mr. Laboucherc.
Mr. Lowe,
i^ir John Pnkington.
Mr. Roebuck.
Lord .Tohn Russell.
Viscount Sandon.
Lord Stanley.

The Right Hon. HENRY LABOUCIIERE, in the Chair.

Mr. William Kcruaghan, called in ; and further Examined.

‘iXt.W.Kcnm’rhan. -‘T’- Mr. Groguti.] Y’OU have been for some time settled at Chicago, have

f, you not ? — Yes.

5 Marcii 1857. 2172. Are yon connected with mercantile pursuits there? — Yes.

2 173. Individually, or as a partner in associated companies ? — Individually.

2174. Has tlie course of your commercial business made you aequainted
with Lake 8ni>eiior, and its capabilities for transit and commerce- — Ves;
fricnils of mine there have a line of steamers that run from (Chicago to three
ports on Lake Superior.

217;-,. What is the most northern port, on Lake Superior, that they go to?
— They go to Ontoganan and Marquette; Onlagon is the copper, Marquette,
the iron disti ict ; and Superior City ; they go to the west.

2176. Do

SELECT COMMHTEE ON TlIK HUDSON’S IJAY COM f’ANY n

217(1. Do they \io lii<>licr up tliiin Lake Superior ; do tliey go to Fo-‘t ^^ il’
in tlic Knijlisli tei ritory ‘. – No.

iiyy. Tlicy do not extend their courHe thi-a heyond the American buutidar^ ‘
— No; there are no settlements on the other side.

.•178. Do you know whether there arc English steamers which travcrit He
lakes to Fort Williiim ? – 1 do not think any regular line runs ; a line iti
junction with the Toronto and Collingwood railroad runs to Lake Superior, but
the steamers helong to an -American company.

2i~i). Do tliey go to Fort William, the English settlement? — I do not think.
they d.< ; tht^y i;<> to the American towns only.

J I So. (‘an you state what is the population ol’ the town of Superior? —
Superior City was founded a year and a half ago, and the population at the end
of tliifi year will exceed 10,(100 people.

2uSi. Are there any projected railways there? — The Pond du Lac railway
runs 120 miles from Chicago at present, and if. i.s to go to Superior City ; it is
tiiiislied 120 miles from Chicago. It is to go to iVIanjuette, to Ontoganan, and
to Superior City ; three hranches.

2182. Do you know of any projected connections or eommiiiiications, between
Fond du l.ac, and any of the British Scjttlements across the line ; lied River, or
the lakes there? — CJeneral Cass brought a Hill the other day into the Michigan
Legislature to render navigable all the rivers, as far as the American territory
went, lieiwcen Lake Winnipeg and Lake Superior, for steamboats and ships.

J 1 83. Mr. Edward KUice,] T^ake Winni[ieg is in Mritish territory? — As far
as the American territory goes towards Lake Winnipeg.

2184. ^Ir. Aihhrlvij.’] In the direction of Liike Winnipeg? — Yes.

■J 18,-,. Mr. Grngdii.’] Do you know what is the length of that projected canal ?
— 1 do not know.

Ji8ti. Or the expense? — I do not know.

21 S7. Has there been any action on that petition in the Legislature? — I do
not know. I only saw it in the Chica.;o paper.

2188. Was Chicago your place of residence ? — Yes.

2i8(). What is the age of that city ?– It is about LO or 20 years of age.

^Kju. What maybe the population of it? — lu December it was 110,000.
1 suppose this month it is about 114,000. It increases 1,800 a month.

2iyi. Was It not fr^’ui Chica’jo that the vessel was freighted which came the
other day to Liverpool with corn ?— Yes. She came liirect.

2192. Have you a personal knowiedue of the Vancouver country on the west
side by the Pacific ? — I have never been as fav north as Vancouver’s Island.
I h.ive been tradiniz; on the Mcst coast of .America for three years. I have been
as far north as San Francisco.

2iy;]. Mr. Edward Ellice.] AA’hat is popularly called California ? — Yes,

2194. Mr. Groijai}S\ Have you any knowledge of that district from reports ?
— 1 met several gentlemen who went to V ancouver’s Island to try to trade there
and they could ncl; trade ; they were refused.

219/;. They went to A’aneouver’s Island for the purposes of trader — Yes;
they tried to commence trade there, and they could not.

2196. AVhat obstruction was there in tlieir way? — The Company did not like
any people to interfere with them there ; that was the reply of those gentlemen
to me.

2197. Mr. Edward EllicA\] Where was that? — At \’ancouver’s Island.

2198. I thought yon said you had only been at San Francisco? — Yes ; I only
visited San Francisco.

2199. How do you know that fact ? — CJentlemen went to trade there from San
Francisco. I found them on their return at. San Francisco.

2200. But did they go to trade there ?— Certainly ; they brought up cargoes
there.

2201. What sort of cargoes? — I suppose general cargo.

2202. Was it spirits r — I suppose everything.

2203. Who were they r— I do not recollect their names now, but I recollect
perfectly the parties.

2204. Mr. Grogan.] Have you reason to believe that the obstructions to
trade to which these gentlemen referred, arose from their desire to trade in
furs ? — No.

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MINITKS OF KVIDKNCi: TAKKN UKFOHK THE

Mi.tf.Kismagian. 2J0.’,. Wan it gi’iifial tiiuli’ that they vcn- uiixious tu tarry on f — Tliry did

not want to trade in lurs* ; tln’v wanted general trade.

5 Maroli i8v JJo(). Did those parties say tliat tliey were proliiliiteij, or tlint hiicIi obstrur-

tions were thrown in then- way hy the (iovernnicnl ot the iHJand, tliat they wire
unable to earry on IniHinesg ^— \e8 ; tiiey were willing to trade there, but would
not go back ai;ain.

3207. Mr. Kdirnrd /•Jlllcc] Was the obatruetion by means of underselling
them ? I do not know what the ohntruetion was, but they were willing to trade
there, and wouhl not ;;{) hack a;;ain until the Hudson’s May Company would be
ilonc away with.

JJ08. Mr. 6’m/«M. j Did those gentlemen inlbrm you whether their inability
to trade arose from any want of the prodiutions of the island, which eould be
excImuKed tor their imports ?- -No. ‘I’lie finest tunber in the world grows on
that eoast and in Vaneouver’s Islaiul, and the best market for timber is iSaii
Francisco. At that time there was a duty of ’20 per cent, on timber imi)orte(l
into the States, which is now done av\ ay with under the Reeiproeity Aet.

22(u). M’as there any duty on the export of tindier from Vancouver’s Island –
-\u; bi.t there was a duty then on the imporis into the I’nited Slates, wbicli
is done away with now.

2210. Mr. Kduaril Ellicc] What description of timber is it? — All kinds of
pine; Hr. Captain Grant shipped one caruo from Vancouver’s Island to a friend
of mine before I was in San Francisco.

a.’ii. Mr. Gioyiin.] Did tim.se gentli’men mention to you anything about coal,
or the mineral ])roduclions of the island .’ — Those gentlemen did not ; but I was
on board the United States steam frigate ” .Massachusetts.”

2212. In what year was this? — January ant! I’ebruary 18;’)! ; she coaled herself
ai Vancouver’s Island with the native coal of the island.

22 1 J. Did the officers give you any account of what it cost then), or the time
it took to coal her?- -The officers told me that they went very close to where the
coal is, on the strand, and that the Indians cpiarriei’ the coal, and that the men
of the shi[i shipped the coal in boats.

2214. Mr. Edu-ard FAlicc.^ How do you know all this? — The officers of the
United .States frigate ” Massacliusetts ” told me. I give the time, and the place,
and the officer who told me.

2215. Mr. GroganJ] Is there any other part of the North American territory
or coasts that you are personally acquainted with ? — I have been in Labrador.

2216. For what length of time were you in Labrador ?— Not very long. •

2217. Mr. Hell.] .’\re you acipiainted with the mining operations on the south
side of Lake Superior? — No. 1 know some of the companies, but I have no
interest in them myself.

2218. Are you acquainted with any facts as to the ])roducts ? — 1 know about
the quantity of the products.

2219. What quantity of copper is there?— There have been .3,000 tons of
copper shi|tped last year from the mines.

2220. How many mines are there? — Near Ontoganan, I suppose there arc
about half-a dozen public comjianies mining.

2221. How long is it since they commenced operations? — A good many
years ; but since the ship canal was opened from Lake Superior to the other
lakes a great many more companies have started. There are iron companies at
Marquette.

2-222. I sec that Lake Winnipeg is njcntioned in the passage wliicii you read
the other dav from the newspaper r — Yes.

2223. On the map there is a small Lake Winnipeg between the Uainy Lake
and the Mississip])i Kiver ; do you know whether that is meant? — I do not know
which.

•J 2 24. Mr. Grotjtm.’] In that part of Lake Superior, where the mineral dis-
trict is located, on the American side, are there any limitations imposed by the
State of Michigan with regard to emigrants who desire to explore the minerals ?
— None whatever.

2225. Every facility is given? — A man may squat where he likes.

222(3. And with regard to raising the minerals, is he at liberty to do so ? — If
you buy the land, the minerals are yours afterwards.

2227. Is it within your knowledge whether the same facilities for emigrantJ4
exist in the British territories as on the American side? — There are no iacilitics

on

SFXKC T COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON’S BAY CUMPANV. 113

II the Hritish »i(l«> north of 19 (l^>^rpeB ; if there vrvrv, the* country would be Vlr.lV.Kernagkan.
UN thickly in’opled iis it m south.

J2a8, Mr. Kchvard Ellicc] How do you know that : whnt an- your nu’nns of 5 Mt-ch 1857.
int’ortnittion “r — Tlio talk of tlu’ nioplf ; thfre aro likely to he di-tturbiuict’s in thftt
country tlic miuiu’ iih in Kun/us if tlu; country U not ninde free \nidcr Kiinznti.

■liH). That w aUo th;- tidk of the pt’oplc ‘ Yes.

3330. Mr. /ir-//.] I”)o Mill know tiuy individuals who would go into that
country to settle if they were not prevented by the exclusive system of the
Hudson’s Hay ( oinpany – -I know a j^reat many ))eople in Chicago who talk of
settling iit the lied Uiver, provided it was under Canadian rule.

•jj;}i. Americans? Americans.

22\i. Mr. Gro^iiu.] Have you at Chicago ever had any commercial dealingn
with, or conu’ across ;iny of the parties who come from the Red Uiver and that
district with their goods —I myself have not had.

•j.’33. Mut do you, ol your own knowh-d^e, know whether any of the settlers
of the Iletl River seek a market for their goods in the American territory ? ~ I
know that last season 500 waggons left Pembina with their pork, their beef,
their lard, their wheat, and all their agricultural produce, and sold it at St.
Paul’s or St. Peter’s, and brought back the goods winch they required.

•J234. That is the cir(!umstanc:e a hich you mentioned to us on the last day ?
-Yes.

2J J,”)- Mr- Edward Etlice.’] They did so, as far as you know, without any
obstruction on the part of the Hudsim’s Bay C’ompany ? — ‘i’he Hudson’s Bay
Company were not powerful enough to stop them.

i23ti. Do you know whether they tried to stop thetn r — Tliat is the talk of
the country.

2237. Mr. Kinnaird.] The talk of the country is n very general sort of term ;
can you give us any fact showing the views of the Comjjany r — No, I can give
you no fact ; but 1 think the best proof is that north of 49 degrees there is no
settlement : south of 49 degrees, in Minesota, there are now 180,000 settlers.
That district had a population four years ogo of 6,000 people ; it has now
180,000. Red River had as large a population 20 yeiirs ago as it has now ; I
think that is a fact which is proof enough.

2238. Do you say that the land round Red River in that whole district is
equally well adapted for settlement as the Minesota district? — So it has been
stated to me.

2239. You do not know it ? — 1 do not know it personally.

2240. Mr. Gregson.] Vou have never been there r — Never. The chief
settlers in Minesota are Norwegians and Swedes, and those people would as
foon be under Canadian rule as under American, and they would cross the
border if allowed.

2241. Mr. Kiiinaird.’\ They would cross the border if encouragement was
given ? — Yes.

2242. Mr. Bdl.’] How near to the border bnve they settled ? —Very close up.

2243. St. Paul’s is 200 to 250 miles from the border ? — Every j’ear they are
closing further and further.

2244. Mr. Addcrle^ J] Do you know the country of Minesota ? — No, I have
not been further north than Dubuque, in Iowa.

2245. Mr. Gordon.^ How do you know that the settlemints are closing up

to the British boundary ? — I know tliat those people would as soon be under /

Canadian vule as under American.

224t). That is not my question. Y^ou said that you knew that the American
ettlers were settling up close to the British l)ound;iry ; how do you know that ?
— From common report. There was a lecture delivered in Chicago ; 1 will
enclose it to the Chairman ; it may give some information.

ti

The Honourable Cliarks William Wcntworlh Fitzwilliain, a Member of the

Committee ; Examined.

2247. Chairman.] I believe you have recently passed some time in British Hon. C. W. IV.

North America? — It is three years since 1 came liaok from America. In the Fttzmlliam, m.p.

winter of 1852-3 i was in Oregon and \’ancouver’s Island.

0.25. P 2248. How

«Mi

114

MINUTES OF EVIDENT K TAKEN BEFORE THE

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Hon. C. W. IF.
liiztoillinm, m.f.

5 March 1857.

2248. How long did you remain in Vancouver’s Island? — I was there two
months, the months of March and April.

Ji49. Wliat opinion did you form of the soil and climate of that island, and
of its capahilities for heoominfj a jjla^e of settlement for Europeans ? — The
climate appeared to me particularly adapted for settlement hy Englishmen. It
seemed to resemble very much the climate of Ena;land, though j)erhaps in
winter not so cold as it is here ; and in summer, from a letter which I have just
received, it must be considerably hotter. The soil is generally productive,
although in places rocky ; the country is divided into wood and prairie country ;
the prairies are parklike ; extensive grounds, stretc^hing into the wood.

22.50. Did you go much about the island? — I was up as far as Nanimo,
where there is n coul mine, about 80 miles to the north of Fort Vicitoria, on the
east side of the island ; and I was about ten miles on the coast to the west.

22.51. I^itl you hear much about the coal mines there, so as to form any
opinion as to their probaI)le productiveness ? — When 1 was there they xcere
working a six feet seam of coal, at a depth of about 40 feet ; it was close on the
shore ; within 20 yards of the shore.

22.52. It is c:i the eastern shore of Vancouver’s Island, I believe? — Yes.

22.53. ‘s there not an easy communication, by means of a valley that almost
cuts the island in two, from the place where tlie coal mines are to a good
harbour on the western side of Vancouver’s Island ? — I do not believe that that
country has ever been explored ; but I should imagine there was from Nanimo,
across to Nittinat Sound.

22.54. Sir John Pahington.’] Which part did you say had not been exjjlored ?
— Hardly any of the interior of the island has been explored.

225,5. I understood you to speak of the west coast not having been explored ?
— On the west coast, I believe, it has not been explored ; at least it had not been
then.

2256. C/iairnitiu.] Was the timber fine in the part of tiie country that you
saw ? — The fir timber was magnificent.

2257. The harbours are excellent, are they not? — Yes; the Esquimault
harbour is the finest harbour I ever saw.

2258. Mr. Grogan.] Is that on the east side or the west ? — All tlie country
I am now speaking of is within the Straits of Fuco.

22,50. Chairman.] What opinion have you of that country with regard to
its resources, as to fisheries ? — .\obody who has not seen the enormous
quantity of fish can possibly credit the value and extent of the fisheries. I do
not know the number of barrels, but many thousand barrels of salt salmon
are sent annually from Victoria to the Hudson’s Bay Company’s depot at
the Sandwich Islands.

2260. Do the neighbouring seas abound with other fish, besides salmon ?—
Herrings are very numerous indeed. To give some idea of how numerous they
are, the method of catching herrings is, that two Indians go in a canoe, one
paddling in the stern, and the other standing in the bow. The Indian in the
bow has a lath of wood about eight or nine feet long, studded with nails. He
scoops down into the water and impales the fish on those nails. In two or
three hours they get a fair load in the canoe.

2261. In what condition did you find the settlement which is now there, as
far as you could judge ? — It was in a very primitive state. There were no
roads except those made immediately round the fort, and one from the head of
Esquimault Harbour to Captain Langford’s house. Captain Langford is the
bailiff, I believe, for the Puget Sound Farming Company.

22()2. Did much advance seem to have taken place in colonising or settling
the country ? — Comparatively speaking, very little. On the other side of Puget
Sound, on the mainland in Oregon, where I believe it had only bten settled
two or three years before the island was granted to the Company, there were
farms of considerable extent.

22(53. Are you speaking of the American country? — Yes; from what is
now Columbia City, or Fort Vancouver, all the way across to Olympia, at tlie
head of Puget Sound. Of course the farms were not continuous ; in a country
like that you do not find farms, as we do in England, one touching the other.

22()^. bid you travel through that country on tlie American side from Fort

Vancouver

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON’S BAY COMPANY. 115

Vancouver to Olympia r — I travelled I»y canoe from Fort Vancouver to the
Cowlets, and then across from there to Olymjjia and to Nisqually.

226,’). There are a good many Indians, I believe, in V^ancouver’s Island? — On
tlie coast of the island; there are none in the interior; they inhabit the coast
entirely ; they are fishing Indians, and live on fish and potatoes.

2266. Do they live in no degree upon hunting? — I believe not; they have
very few offensive weapons ; no bows or arrows, and I believe, generally speak-
ing, no guns.

2267. They are not a wariike race then at all ?— They are, to a certain extent,
warlike ; they make war in canoes, but I think they generally fight hand to
hand, und not with missiles.

2261^. Mr. Edward Kllice^ Do you know the Cowichan valley? — The
Cowichan valley is about 40 miles from Fort Victoria, on the east coast; the
Cowichan Bay is a deep bay with, at the extreme end of the bay, low land, and
on the north side are high mountains ; it must be a very productive valley
indeed, from thf great quantities of potatoes which I saw traded there by the
Com]tany and by other trades when I was there.

22(9. You were not in the valley? — No; when I was there it was almost
dangerous to land there ; it was just after the execution of two Indians for
murder,

2270. Chairman.] Do you know what was the number of the European
community settled in Vancouver’s Island when you were there.- — I do not
know exactly, but I should think that the numbirs of Kuropeans and half-
breeds, considering them all as white men, were about 300.

‘.^271. Did you hear any causes assigned for the number of settlers there
having increased so little ? — I think one principal cause is the distance at which
it is from the mother country.

2272. Did you hear the attractions of California, as a gold-producing country,
assigned at all as a reason for their not having increased more ? — I think all
those who got up as f.r north as Vancouver’s Island would not turn south and
go to San P”rancit>co, but they would he more likely to go over to the main
land, which they could do very easily in canoes, where they would get as much
tmi)loynient as they could want at very remunerative wages.

227*3. Would not settlers who are in doubt where to go, who might have
been induced to go to Vancouver’s Island, have gone to California on account of
the fiold ? — 1 do not think that a sufficient number crosses the equator in that
direction for me to form any opinion upon that subject.

2274. Did you travel about any other part of North America? — I was all
through the States on the Missouri river, as far as Port Pierre. I crossed the
Rocks Mountains twice, and was in California, and also in New Mexico.

227.). You were ntit in the territory miiuaged by the Hudson’s Bay Com-
pany ?— No ; not north of the Boundary Line.

227(‘).* Mr. Kinnaird.] You stated that the interior of Vancouver’s Island had
never been explored at all ; did you ascertain whether there was any systematic
attempt to arrive at a knowledge of the nature of the country by the Govern-
ment there ? — I do not think that there was any systematic attempt.

2277. Do you not consider it very desirable thr.t an island of that importance
should be, in a certain measure, survej ed : — Certaiidy 1 do ; for I think it is
the most valuable possession in the Pacific. If you take the map of the Pacific
you will see that the only safe harbours in the Paeific exist in Vancouver’s Island,
with 1 erliaps the exception of Aeapulco and San Francisco. The entrance to
the hailiour in the Columbia River is excessively dangerous, and ships are fre-
qiicntl} detained there c 22S2. There

Hon.C. If. If.
Fitxviilliam, m. r.

5 March 1857.

:f#.

ii6

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Hon. C. ly. W.
Fitzwiliiam, m. p,

M

wi

11 ‘•

§Mk

March 1857.

2282. There was a surveyor to the Company then ? — Yes.

2i83. Mr. Kiniiaird.] Yon stJited that tliere was a considerable difficulty in
landing at a certain point, owing to the excitement among the Indians ? — That
was in Cowichan Bay.

2284. Which is part of Vancouver’s Island r — Yes.

2285. What were the circumstances which rendered your landing dangerous r
— A short time before I arrived there, a Cowichan and a Nanimo Indian had
killed either one or two shepherds.

2286. Europeans? — Yes; I believe they were Europeans. Mr. Douglas, aided
by Captain Kuper, of the ” Thetis,” took these men, and they were tried and
hung for the murder; they were hung at Nanimo.

2.>87. That created great excitement among the other Indians?— Yes.

2288. And it was considered not safe at that time to land ?— I certainly did
not think it safe myself, because, if I had landed, I should have had to land
alone ; and as I could not speak Cowichan, and those Indians did not under-
stand signs, I did not wish to risk myself there.

2289. Have any attempts been made, as far as you know, for the civilization
or instruction of these natives ? — 1 think none.

2290. Have you heard of any missionary being on the island at all? —
Mr. Stains, the chaplain to the Company, was then on the island, and there
was a Roman Catholic bishop.

2291. You are not aware that any means were being used, or that any
schools were in existence ; there was no settlement of Indians there ? — The
Indians there live in permanent villages ; they are not a migratory tribe like
those on the main land, but they live in villages on the shore.

2292. You would, therefore, consider thcit it would be easier to provide
for their instruction than it would be in the case of the wandering Indians ? —
I think so.

2293. Chairman.] Are they employed on the coal mines at all? — No.

2294. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Vancouver’s Island is about as large as England,
is it not ? — I should think it is as long as England proper, but not so wide.

2295. Sir Join Pakiiigton.] Is Victoria the only European settlement there ?
— Yes. the only town.

2296. Do the 300 English and half-breeds, of whom you spoke, reside at
Victoria? — No, not- all; some of them reside on farms in the neighbourhood.

2297. Am I right in presuming that those farms are in the neighbourhood
of Victoria? — All within 12 miles of it.

22y8. Substantially, there is only one Enghsh settlement in Vancouver’s
Island?— Exactly so.

2299. Is that English settlement of Victoria situated upon the very fine
harbour of which you have spoken?— No, not exactly on it ; it is situated on
a small harbour which runs in a little to the east of Esquimault ; going by land
it is within a mile and a half of the harbour.

2300. To what extent did you yourself obtain any personal knowledge of
Vancouver’s Island? — 1 was at the coal mines at Nanimo.

2301 . How far are they from* Victoria r — They are about 80 miles, on the east
coast.

2302. I apprehend that those coal mines practically constitute a settlement,
do they not ? — Yes. I forgot tiie settlement at the coal mines.

2303. What is the number of Europeans who are settled a»- the coal mines ?
— I do not believe there were more than 10 when i was there.

2304. What was the aggregate population there? — I do not believe there
were more than 10 persons altogether at the co.al mines.

2305. Do you mean that the coiil mines are worked by 10 persons ? — There
were only four men then working in the mine.

2306. Without the assistance of any Indians or half-breed ? — Yes, except one
or two just to wind up the coal.

23117. How far from the coast is the coal mine at Nanimo? — Twenty yards.

2308. Then the coals are all conveyed by sea, of course ? — Yes ; a .’)00 ton
ship can come within 10 yards of the shore ; within 40 yards of the mouth of
the pit.

2309. On which coast is Nanimo ? — On the east coast.

2310. Within the straits?— Yes; all the country I am speaking of is within
the Straitt^ of Fuco.

23 11. Arc

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON’S BAY COMPANY. 117

23H. Are those straits throughout easy of navis^ation; is it a pretty bold,
safe coast; say from Victoria to iVIaniiuo, is it a safe navigation? — It is rather
an intricate navigation, for it is tiirough a chister of islands tlie way I went, by
canoe and steam -boat.

2J12. You have spoken of a 500 ton ship ; is the water deep? — Yes.

23 1 3. Is there any difficulty in navigating a 500 ton ship from Victoria to
Nanimo ? — Not with propelling power.

2314. Do you know the total number of Indians in Vancouver’s Island?
—No.

2315. I understood you to state that they were peaceable, and for the most
part unarmed ? — I should say they are for the most part unarmed. 1 do not
lielieve in the peaceableness of any Indian.

2310. Will you explain that answer?—! believe thai any Indian will take any
and every advantage he possibly can.

2317. What I mean rather is, not whether as an uncivilised man he would
take advantage, but whether the Indians of Vancouver’s island have evinced
any disposition to be aggressive towards the European settlers, or whether they
have lived peaceably with the European settlers ? — I think, generally speaking,
they have lived peaceably with tliem, as far a^ I can understand.

23 1 8. They are not what you would comparatively speak of as a savage
tribe of Indians r — No ; they are not to be compared with the Blackfeet.

2319. Mr, Uelt.] From what you say, the (oal mines are not at all in active
operation ? — No ; they were not when I was there.

2320. Mr. Edward EUice.~\ Of what time do you speak with reference to that
coal?— 1853.

2321. Are you aware that very shortly after the coal was discovered there
was an intention shown to begin to work it ? — Yes.

2322. Are you not aware tliat there are now GO or 70 miners employed ? —
I am not sure; but when I was there I know that miners were expected out,
in the ” Otter,” I think.

2323. Mr. Gordon ~\ What class of persons were the settlers of whom you
iiave been talking ; were they persons who had come from Kiigliind, or persons
who had settled there from America ; had any come from the opposite coast ?
— ] think very few ; some American ; had come for job work.

‘-‘324. Where had the white population, such as it was, come from? — From
England, generally speaking.

232.5. What inducements had brought those Knglish settlers out there? —
Several had come out as servants of the Puget Sound Farming Company, and
were acting as bailiffs and servanij on that farm ; they had oeen brought out
in the Company’s sliips.

■iyiCi. Vou do not think, then, that any of the settlers there had come out
attracted by the advantages of the island itself ; they had come out, as it were,
Jiecidentally in some capacity, and then they remained there I — I think only
•me iiad come out to settle.

2327. Was any encouragement given to settlers to come ; was there any
effort made to induce other settlers to come ? — I think not.

2328. Mr. Edward Kllicc] Vou do not know that to be the fact?— No.

2329. Mr. Ciordun.] Do you happen to know at what price land was pro-
cured tlierc r— Land was sold at 1 /. an acre, according to the assignment of
the island to the Company by the Clovernment. ‘1 he Company received 10 per
cent, of that, and the remaining 90 per cent, was to be expended in the improve-
ment of the island.

^330. Do you know when that coal mine of which you have spoken was first
discovered r — At the end of 1852, I think.

2331. Have you often travelled with American fur traders r — Yes.

2332. Have you had any opportunity of observing whether they, in their
traffic with the Indians, make great use of spirituous liquors as a means of
barter?— I think, generally speaking, they do not use liquors.

2333. Is there any penalty in force if it is proved that they have made use
of them ? — A very heavy one.

‘334. Have you ever seen that heavy penalty practically enforced ? — I cannot
say thiit I have seen it ; but I have heard that a man whom I wished to employ
had been detected trading in liquor, and 1 ad been taken t’own from Fort
Liiramy on the Plat to the iStates.

0’2j. P 3 ^335- As

Hon. C. W. W.
FitxwUliam, n. p.

5 March 1857.

(•- :

‘■’ r

^

li8

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Hon. C. W. IV,
litxwilUam, ki. p.

K.r :, M.

-5

•”4

n

5 March 1857.

233,5′ >^s a prisoner f — As a prisoner,

2336. Chained?—! believe so.

2337- Then do you believe that that regulation is practically carriwl out r —
I think it is, where they have tiie jjower to do so.

•J338. Mr. Pcrcij il’erbcrl.’] You spoke of the anchorage; that ships of 500
tons could lie off the coal mine ?— Ves.

2339. Is that a secure and extensive anchoraj^e ?— It is not an extensive
anchorage exactly opposite the coal mine ; it is perfectly secure, and within a
quarter of a mile of it there is anchorage for any number of ships that choose
to go there.

2340. Is the supply of coal supposed to he very large f — It had not been
explored very much when I was there, hut they were then working a six-feet
seam, which seemed to descend into the ground instead of rising to the
surface.

2341. Viscount Sandon.] I think there are some islands between Vancouver’s
Islaml and tl»e mainland ? — Yes.

2342. Have you been on them ?~I have camped on some of them.

2343. Are tiiey capable of cultivation f — Yes, I think so.

2344. They are just at the mouth of the harbour, 1 think, opposite Victoria?
—They are not at tlie mouth of the harbour.

2345. Just opposite r — Not opposite the moutli of the harbour ; they are to
the back of the harbour.

2346. .Mr. Edward EU’ue.~\ Are not those the islands now in dispute between
the American (iovcrnmeni and our own ? — Yes.

2347. Mr. Adikrhy.’] Can you tell us anything about the administration of
the island, tlie government, or the magistracy ? — Tlierc was a governor appointed
by the home Government, Mr. Douglas, and he had a council of five to aid
him in the government of the island.

2348. Is he at all under the control of the Hudson’s Bay Company ?— He is
a chief factor in the Company.

2349. Was he appointed by the Company ?— No; not by the Company, but
at the suggestion of the Company.

2350. What are the miigistracy, or how is the law enforced there “r- Mr.
Douglas appointed magistratis. I do not know exactly whether they enforced
the law as it would l)e enforced in Kngland, but they made some attempt to
do so.

23,5 ‘ • There are tribunals in X\\’.’ island in case of breaciies of the law ? —
The offenders are brought up before the magistrates whenever such a case
occurs.

23 -,2. Have tlie Company done anything by way of settling the land? — I do
not think that the Hudson’s Bay Company itself actually has, but the Puget
Sound Fanning Company, wiiich is composted of members of the Hudson’s Bay
Comjjany, has taken out settlers there, and has cultivated a considerable quan-
tity of land.

2353. Is that Puget Sound Company entirely merged in the Hudson’s Bay
Company, or is it a separate Company ■ — It is a separate Company, 1 believe,
conij)osed altogether of members of the Hudson’s Bay Company ; that is how
it wiis explained to me.

2354. So that the whole of the I’uget Sound Company is merged in the
Hudson’s Bay Company r— Yes ; all tiie members of it are officers of the
Hudson’s Bay Company.

23,5.’). Mr. Edward Kllirc] You do not state that as a fact, do you ? — I was
informed so.

23.3(i. Mr. Addtrltij.] Do the Company occujjy lands as belonging to them-
selves besides the land which they have sold- — 1 think tliey had a few fields in
cultivation close to the fort for their own supplies.

23,’)7- Are the public buildint;s at the harbours, and the wharfs, and so on,
retained by the Conijiany as their ov.n property r — There are no public buildings,
and no wharfs, but those which belong to the Company.

23′)K. Do the Company claim a royalty ui)on the mines ? — Yes. I am speak-
ing of I H.’j.’j.

23,59. 1′” >'”” know whether they are taking any steps whatever to advertise
immi:;rauts ? — I hiive never seen any advertisement of the sort.

2^Go. You talked of a surveyor being iippoiuied : how did it come to pass

that

SELECT COMMITFEK ON THE HUDSON’S BAY COMPANY. 119

that that surveyor was appointed, and yet that no survey took place?— He Hon. C. IV-IK
sei’ined to me to be mostly engaged in determining the latitude and longitude Ftttvidliam, m. p.
at different ijoints of the island, which was most usuless for the beneht of the “‘ “^
colonists. 6 *•”‘•=” ‘^•■’7-

•J3()i. Was he paid by the Company ? — Yes.

23()2. From whiit quarter do you think that the settlement of that country
will naturally come ; from the sea side or from the land side ? Supposing
it wiis perfectly free for colonisation, and that there were no rights of the
Hudson’s Hay Company acting as any ol)stacle to emigration from any portion
of the world, do you think it likely tliat it would be. settUnl gradually from the
sea, or that a ])opulation woidd grow up from the United States to it r — 1 think
that in all jjrobability it would be settled from the sea ; that emigrants would
sail from here.

2.363. Do you know that ])ortion of the United States called Columbia ? —
I have been through the Wasliington and Oregon ttirritories ; there are very
few roads there, and most of the eouummication is l)y water.

23C4. Does the ])opulation at all increase in that (lirection :— Vastly.

236,’;. Towards the borders? — Yes, up along the shores of Puget Sound, by
Nisqually.

2366. Is tliere any speculation in those fisheries of which you spoke, further
than the mere fishing in canoes ; is there any appesirance of comi)anies being
formed for the purjjose of speculating in those fisheries ? — None whatever. ‘J’he
Hudson’s Bay Company traded the fish from the Indians, and annually sent
down a great deal of salt fish to their depot at the Sandwich Islands.

2367. Uo the Company claim a monopoly of that fishery ; do they claim the
exclusive right of fishery upon the coasts of Vancouver’s Island ? — They do
not fish themselves ; the Indians are the fishermen, and they trade their fish
to the Company.

2368. Have the Com])any a monopoly in that trade? — No, I should not say
that they have a monopoly there, for when I was at Cowichan there was an
opi)osition going on at the time.

2 {(ig. From what quarter was it ? — A settler on the island, a Mr. Couj)er, was
trading then. I think he had got some goods up froui San FVaucisco, and he
was trading to San Francisco at the time.

2370. Mr. Grot/ail.] In fish ? — Mostly in lumber to San Francisco.

2371. Mr. Adilcrlc^.] Was Mr. Cooper a man who had purchased land from
the Company ? — Yes, he had a farm there ; he had about I’y acres in cultivation
then, and would, I dare say, before the year was out, double that.

•,i.’)72. Do you know Nootka Sound ? — No.

2373. I suppose that is a notoriously fine harbour? — I believe so.

2374. Can you state what is the nature of tiie coal which you have seen ; is
it a good coal : — It is an excellent coal, very like the West Hiding of Yorkshire
coal.

237,5. And that is a vein very near the surface r— Yes.

237(). Mr. Grogan.] What did you say were the production- hat the settlers
wen; raising when you were there ; you spoke of the Indian^ raising a great
quantity of potatoes ; was corn reared ? — Wheat was raised.

2377. Was it a safe crop: — Yes, I believe so.

2378. Were there any other cereal crops besides wheat ? — Oats and barley.
237y. Have you any doubt vvhatevc r that they would grow there just as well

as they do in these climates? — None whatever.

2380. Chairman.] In short, it is a very fine soil and climate, is it not? —
Yes.

2381. Sir John P^kiiiytuii.’} At what time of the year were you there? — In
March and Apiil.

2382. Mr. Groffan.] Were there any number of settlers who had purchased
land from the Company, or was Mr. Cooper an isolated case? — I think Mr.
Cooper was an isolated case ; he was in partnership with a farmer, .Mr. Blenk-
horn, who was by far the most energetic settler on the island ; he was a man
who had been in Austrulia for several years, and afterwards came back to
England, and then went out with .\lr. Cooper to the island.

2383. In fact there are no number of settlers going there, or in the island
at present? — No, except those who are brought out by the Puget Sound
Company.

o.2j. P4 2384. The

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I

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120

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Hon. C. H’. IV.
Fitrwilliam, m. p.

5 March 1857.

‘2384. The settlers whom you have described to us, and those in and about
Fort Victoria, were all the ! Mnrch 1857.
Hudson’s Bay Company ?- In the district called the Mackenzie River district ;

the most northerly district.

2395. In what capacity ? — 1 was a clerk, or a postmaster, u junior officer in
the Hudson’s Bay Company’s service.

2396. In what year was that ? — In the years 1838, 1839, and 1840, I think ;
I am not quite sure of the date ; but it was about that time.

2307. What induced you to leave the service of the Hudson’s Bay Company r
— I wished to come to England to complete my education ; I was desirous of
obtaining a University education, and of (jualifying myself for a profession.

2398. You did not leave the service of the Company in consequence of any
dispute r — Not by any means ; I had no dispute at all with the Hudson’s Hay
Company, and have no personal complaint whatever against them.

2399. When did you return to that country i — I have not been back since.

2400. You were born there, and as a child you lived there r — Ves.

2401. What was your age when you left? — I was very young ; under 20.

2402. In what year did you leave ? — To the best of my recollection about
1841, I think ; I am not quite sure ; or 1842 ; it is many years since I left the
territory.

2403. During the whole of those three years for which you were in the
ser%’ice of the Company, you we: • at the Mackenzie River, were you not r —
During the three years that I wit. in the Company’s service. I had travelled
through portions of the territory before that ; but I was very young at the time.

2404. Have you any knowledge of the Red River Settlement, for instance ?
— Yes ; I was at school there as a boy, and I have a little property there, for-
merly belonging to my father, which c ) t

i i

Mr. i<. IiUtiiir. one who chose to enter into it r — I have thouglit over that question a great (leal, I'spccially in reference to the Indians. 1 may at onc(^ state that my chief 5 March 1857. object, in connectinfj; myself with thi« movement at all, was to improve the condition of the native and half-caste Indians in the Red River Settlement. I l)elieve, upon the whole, that if a monopoly of the fur trade could be estab- Ushi-d, and could be possibly made to consist with the enlightenment and pro- gress of the Indians, a monopoly would be best ; but I am afniiil that under the present circumstances a monopoly is impossible. I do not think that the Canadians would allow a monopoly to be csttiblished in that territory. You are quite aware that they have laid a claim to that territory, and I believe they have a legal right to it. '-'41 1. What territory are you speaking of? — The Hudson's Bay territory. 241 '2. Irre.spectively of that claim, and adverting merely to the advantage of the Indians, what do you think would be the effect of throwing open the fur trade indiscriminately to all comers? — In some respects the Indians would be benefited ; I see no objection but one : that is, that there might be a possibility of spirituous liquors being introduced into that ttrritory in greater quantities than they now are introduced. 2413. Do you believe that they are introduced in any considerable quantity? — I have very great reason to believe so. J414. Are you speaking of the entire territory, or only of those parts of the territory that adjoin the settled districts?— From the most correct information that 1 can procure, I believe that the Hudson's Bay Company have discontinued the sale of spirituous liquors in the northern portions of their territories, but that in the country south of the Saskalchawan, and down to the frontier, spirituous liquors are either given or bartered ; at any rate supplied to the Indians ; there are facts to prove it, which I have liere. •2415. With regard to the fur trade, merely looking at it as a trade, do you believe that if the trade was indiscriminately thrown open to everybody the consequence would be the destruction of the fur-bearing animals or not ? — I think not ; I think that is jjroved by the fact that even in the western states of the United States the fur trade is still carried on to a very great extent; I believe there is now a fur merchant in London, Mr. Lampson, who is the agent for the American Fur Company and for the American fur traders ; I believe his sales are quite as large as those of the Hudson's Bay Company ; but the furs are inferior in value; they are of a coarser description, as all furs in southern latitudes are. 2416. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Does that remark apply to all furs, or to a par- ticular sort of furs ?— The agiiregate of the sales, I belii^ve, is about the same as that of the Vludson's Bay Company. 2417. Do those sales include all sorts of furs, or are they specially confined to one or two descriptions of animals? — I believe they include all sorts of furs, as fur as I have been informed. 2418. Chairman.] Are you at all aware of what has been taking place during the last few years in the United States ; of the wars that have been going on between the white and the rfed man, and of the b'oodshed that has so been occasioned ? — Yes ; I have read many accounts of t'lese wars. ^ 2419. They have been very dreadful, I believe ?--They have. 2420. There has been absolute peace, has the' e not, in the Hudson's Bay territory between the white and the red man ? — -Tne numbers of Indians in the Hudson's Bay territories are so few that there could not have been any great wars. As stated by Sir George Simpson, the other day, I think the whole number of the Indians in the thickwood countries, as he called them, was only about 30,000 odd ; and when that is distributed over such ai. immense ai-ea, it is impossible t^at these Indians, so distributed, could get up a war. 2421. You believe the Indian tribes in the United States to be far njore numerous ? — Yes, and of a far more warlike character 2422. In fact, it is a country more fitted for the subsistence of human beings ? — Decidedly so. 2423. Should you have no apprehension that, in tliis vast territory now subject to the Hudson's Bay Company, if there was an uncontrolled admission of whites, to trade in I'urs in that territory, there would not spring up wars between the white and the red man of a very atrocious character?-- 1 do not see any probability of it, for the Hudson's Bay Company do not pretend to control SELKCrr COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. i^^ * lar luore control these Indians r and they do not pretend to exercise any influence over Mr. A. Ishitier. them so far as I am aware. 2d .». Do they not practically exercise a very great influence over the In- 5 March 1857. diaiis? — They may. 242,';. Do they ? — I do not know that they do. .'4j(). You do not believe that they do? — I do not believe that they do. f have never seen any instances in wliieli they have any practical influence of that kind which you speak of ; their influence is entirely connected with trade ; I do not believe that they have anything else to do with the Indians than pro- cure furs iit the cheapest rate they can, aiid deal with them. .?4'.27. You do not think that they exer-^ise their influence to keep order in the country, und t<> uphold justice, so .t.. as it is possible to uphold justice
tbrousih so great an extent of country, in tho circumstances in which they are
placed .’ — I believe it is a principle of the Hudson’s Bay Company’s administra-
tion not to interfere in the quarrels or disputes of tribes at all, or to interfere
as little as possible. If any aggressions are made upon the whites by the
Indians, then they punish them severely.

2428. In short, in your opinion, the interests of the red man would not suffer
if the whole territory was thrown open to white men, without any restriction or
control ? — I think they would not, if there was a guarantee that spirituous
liquors should not be introduced into the territory ; if there were proper means
for preventing it.

2429. Do you believe that it would be possible, it’ rival traders were comjiet-
ing with one another in the chase of these fur-bearing animals, through the
instrumentality of the Indians, to prevent or restrain those parties thus com-
peting with one another from having recourse to the s^upply of spirits to the
Indians, which is the most attractive means of influencing them ? — I believe it
would be difficult, but not impossible ; at least, to a very great extent. I be-
lieve the practice in the American Fur Company’s territories, if I may use the
term, that is, in those portions of the territories occupied by xVmericans, is to
allow no i)erson to trade in furs without a licence, which licence is forfeited upon
the finding of any spirituous liquors in the possession of the trader ; one trader
is set to watch the other ; they have each an interest in informing upon each
other ; and I believe, upon the whole, that spirituous liquors are not largely
used. 1 have here rather a remaikable paper ; a complaint by the American
Government against the Hudson’s Bay Company for supplying spirituous
liquors in large quantities to the Indians ; a complaint addressed to our CJovern-
mrnt, and jirinted here in the form of a Parliamentary Paper.

2430. Mr. Edward Eliict.] What is the date of it? — 1850. {T/ie l)V/«ew Tide Appemlut.
delivered in tht same.)

2431. Chairman.} You believe, then, speaking in the interest of the red man,
that it would be for his advantage that the monojioly of the Hudson’s Bay
Company in fur trading should be abolished, and that the country should be
thrown open to the unlimited competition of any persons who might wish to
engage in it? — I should not like to express a very decided opinion upon the
point. I should very much like to hear the evidence of the Bishop of Rupert’s
Land, and the clergymen who have been in that territory, before I would expresi^
any distinct opinion upon the matter.

2432. You have considered these questions for a great many years ; have
you not formed a decided opinion upon a point of that description? —I have
not.

2433. It is a point on which a great deal turns, is it not? — It is a very
important point.

2434. You are, doubtless, conversant with the state of things which existed
in that country when there was competition in the fur trade between two great
companies, the North-VVest Company and the Hudson’s Bay Company ? — I have
read of the disputes that took place between them.

243/). \\ iiat was the state of things then?— There was a great deal of
disorder and violent? in the terrritory : I think that under present circumstances
these disorders would not arise again ; there was an absence of any controUing
power in the country in Xhose times ; there were no clergymen nor missionaries ;
there was no public opinion of any sort or kind.

2436. You think that theie could be an efficient system of control established
0.25. Q 2 which

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184

MINUTES OF rviDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

r-r ;i’

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i!M’

I

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Mr. A. Uhuttr. which would prevent those evilH for the future ? — By extending the Canadian
Government over those territories, not otherwise.

S, Marcb iB,;;. 3437. Do you thinl< that tlie (iovernment of Canada could undertake to ki^ep peace nnd order, and to enforce a proper system of cheek and control over this vtist territory, which would jjrevent these evils? — If they did not I should not recommend the territories heing thrown open. •2438. Do you think that the Canadian Government could do it f — ! believe it is their wish to do it ; I believe they coidd undertake it, becaus«> that ter-
ritory is now practically governed from London : why should it not he governed
from Toronto much more easily •

2439. At present it is governed from Loudon by a compiiny who have a mono
poly of the trade, and have their servants scattered all over the country ? —
rreciscly.

2440. it wouhl then be governed by an authority at Toronto which would
have no trading interest in the matter, but would have the duty of keeping
order through all this vast territory ; that would he the difference, would it not ?
— That would be the difference

2441. And you believe that the system would work equally well ? — A force
would be required in the Hed River Settlement, which force would keej) the
whole territory under control ; because access to any jiart of the northern dis-
tricts there, is by one outlet or one opening, the Saskatchawan River, wliieh
enters into Lake Winnipeg ; you cannot approach Mackenzie’s River, Athabasca,
or any of those territories in the north, except througii that one opening. A
custom-house or a little garrison established there would exercise an effectual
control and su|)ervi8ion over everything which entered the country.

2442. \Vhat you would propose would be to join the whole of this immense
territory on both sides of the Kocky Mountuins to the colony of Canada ? — I
am afraid that it will come to that ; I should hardly call it a plan, but I am
afraid there will be no other way of settling the difficulty.

2443. There would be a considerable expense incurred, 1 presume, in main-
taining order through so vast an extent of country ? — There would he the
expense of establishing a force at the Red River territory.

2444. There must be posts scattered all over the country, I presume .’ — I
believe order could be maintained without stationing those posts all over the
countr}’.

244.”,. How could the expense be defrayed, whatever it was, of governing
and administering the affairs of a country of this description r — The trade of
that country is consiilerable ; a tax could be laid ujion the trade to defray the
expense of controlling and conducting it.

2446. Do you think that it would not answer the i)urposes of Canada as a
colony better, to have joined to Canada any country in its vicinity over which it
is at all iirobabhi or jjossible that settlement should extend ? — I am not prepare*!
to speak upon that point ; I only judge of the sentiments of C’anada from the

• newspapers. Merely stating my own opinion, I sliould say that there might

perhaps be no objection to it, axid that the arrangement on the whole might
be a beneficial one, taking the territory gradually as, they required it.

2447. But do you think that it would be expedient or advisable to join Van
couver’s Island, for instance, to the colony of Canada ■ — Vancouver’s Island is
quite a different consideration ; I think there ought to be a separate colony
there.

2448. With regard to the country on the mainland adjoining Vancouver’s
Island, which may be adapted for the purposes of settlement, would it not be
more convenient that that should be mwle a colony, and that its inhabitants
should manage their own affairs, rather than be obliged to go to Toronto for
that purpose ? — I think the whole of the territory west of the Rocky Mountains
must be administered from Vancouver’s Island, if it is thrown open. The
Canadians may, however, think differently.

2440. Then you are speaking merely of Rupert’s Land ? — Merely of Rupert’s
Land ; the territory to the north of Canada. I believe it is our interest to
people that country, because the United States are fast peopling the territory
along the frontier, and they will have that territory from us unless we do
people it.

24,50. You think that it v>rould not be enough, if such an arrangement could
be made, to take away from the Hudson’s Bay Company any such territory as

could

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDbONS BAY COMPANY 13/5

could be made use of for the ])urpoHe8 of settlement for n lonu; time to come ; Mr, A. Iibuitr.

but thiit it would be nlso de»iriible to take from tbeni that portion of their terri- —

iory which could only be applied for the purposes of the fur trade, and to throw 5 Mtrch 1857.

it open to unrestricted ••ompetition r — I am looking nt the inducements which

would lend emigrants into that territory ; I do not think they would go from

Canada to the lied River Settlement merely for the purpose of obtaining land ;

they could get land in abundance in Canada. If, therefore, our object is to

jM’ople that territory, we must hold out an inducement to tliem by throwing

open the fur trade to them. Hut eveii otherwise I do not think it is juHsible to

enforce n monopoly in tliat territory ; you cannot do it. If you tlirow open

Red River to the Canadians, you throw open the fur trade practical!}-. There

is no means t)f ])reventing those people going the/e ; you may just as well talk of

establishing a monopoly in the gold fields of Australia.

24,’) I. You think, whatever the difficulties are, that thos(! difficulties must be
coped with ? — 1 tiunk so ; there is the case of the Retl River Settlement ; they
have gone into the fur trade in s|)ite of all the endeavours of the Hudson’s Bay
Conjpany, and it is a very insignificant colony. I have now a statement of the
furs whicrh were sent out from tin; Red River district by way of the United States.
They are forcing a channel through there.

•J4.’).’. Am I rightly representing your opinions as amounting to this, that
you consider the thing inevitable, that, whether we wish it or not, the fur trade
will, by the i)rogr(!Ss of events, be thrown open to competition r — That is my
opinion.

24,-53. But that you are doubtful, if it could be prevented, of the effects that
such a change would produce upon the interests of the Indians, as fiir as they
are concerned ? — Yes ; I wish to reserve my opinion upon that ])oint.

24.’54. You referred to a paper giving an account of the fur trade going on with
the Americans : — The trade going on between the Red River Territory and
the United States.

24,’)5. Mr. Edward Eilice.] What is that paper to which you refer ? — An
extract from a newsjjaper which has been put into my hands within the last
two days. If it is received as evidence, I .shall feel bound to give the date, and
the name of the paper. It is evidently an authentic document as far as a
newsjjaper state nent can be so : ” Here are a few interesting Minesota items.
The towns along the western bank of the Mississippi are rapidly im))roving in
trade and population. A new land offifie is soon to be opiined at Buchanai>,
near the head of Lake Superior. St. Lawrence is the name of a new town, 15
miles above Shakoj)ee, on the Minesota River. Trade between St. Paul and
Sujierior is (juite brisk. The total amount of peltries from the Pembina. Red
River region, exported from St. Paul, Minesota, for 1856, is as follows :• — G4,’292
rats; 8,276 minks; 1,428 martens ; 8/6 foxes; 3,600 coons; 1,045 fishers ; 10
wolverines; ,”}64 badgers; 2,032 wolves; 405 otter; 2,642 rit-foxes ; 610
deer” (skins jmjbably) ; ” 20 cross-fox ; 8 silver fox ; 50 lynx ; 7,500 buffalo
robes, and 586 pounds of beaver ; worth, in the aggregate, about 97,000
dollars”

24;,6. You do not consider yourself responsible for that statement ? — No, it
is simply a newspaper statement.

2457. Mr. KinnaiidJ] Is it from an English or an American paper? — It has
only been sent to me within the last two days, and in that form. I have written
to ask where it is extracted frofi, and of course, if it is received as evidence, I
shall be able to state in a few days.

^4,58. Mr. Gordon.] Do you credit it, from the otiier sources of information
which are open to you : — 1 do.

■J4,5(). Mr.G’ro^Y^/.] I believe you had a long correspondence with the Colonial
Office relative to a petition to Her Majesty which was sent from the Red River
Settlement some years ago ? — Yes. I laid that petition before Lord Grey.
I was myself resident at the time in England ; but I am nut responsible fir the
statements of that petition in any way. I believe them to be true : and I pro-
duced evidence in the course of ihose papers to support the statemer/ts umde by
the petitioners as far as I c(mld.

24()o. Am I to understand that you were concerned in getting up the evidence
which is contained in these papers ? — Yes, but not in getting up the petition ;
I had no connexion with the petition.

0.25. Q 3 2461. I refer

lafi

MINUTES OF EVIDFNCE TAKF.N BEFORE THE

lifllydil

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Mr. A. ttktttr. ‘J4fil. I rrfrr to a vnrlrty ‘tf pupiTH tlint w«’rt’ iiiclcwrd wliich w«’r<' f(invanl«'(l to tin- Colonial Orticr in cupport of tliiit |iftition from H«'«l Uiv«'r< - Yrs. S March 1857. 2.^tv2. You not \ *lii» I'videiuT to biirk up tlu' stutniuuts of tin- petition ■ — Pr('ciii«'ly. •-'4113. You liavf no ([uestion or iloiiht of th»' nccurncy of tln'st- papfn* f— No, unh'Hs then' iire sonn- n>isi)rint.f ; there ure ^o^u• miHprintH in the t’ourse
of them.

•24<»4. In page 7H of the Pnrliitmentnry Paper entitled " Corresjumdenre relativ*' to Complaints of the Inhabitants of th<' Red Hiver Settlement," there are the names of five retired servants of tlie Iluilson's Hay ('omi»any, and some very strong statements are there contained • — Yes, I have seen them. .'4tt-,. Did you know any «)f those .servants yourself.' — The last two I kn«'w personally ; as to tlie other three, 1 know where they are just now, and know their friends, and know them to be respectable persons. 24t><). Have you any doubt whntsot ver of their being trustworthy and tmthful men?- None whatever. •J467. .\nd )ou place full confidence in their statements "■ — In the statements given here I do ; they agree with my own observations ami experience. 2^6^. Will you turn over to page HO: " ,\re there any schools for the instruction of the natives where you have been ?" appears to have been a {[uestion sent to these five servants ?— Yes. 24(io. They respectively answer, " I do not know of any." " None." '• There are no schools for the instruction of the natives." " None at the posts I have been at." " A school was lately established at Norway House." Does the state- ment there correspond with your knowledge of that Red River Settlement, and of the general management of the Hudson's Hay Comi)any with n-gard to the education of the people ? — It is perfectly true, I believe, to this day, as far as the Hudsim's Bay Company are concerned. That is making a distinction between the schools estidilished by the missionarie.-J and the schools estnblisheil by the Hudson's Hay Company, of which there are none that I know of, with the exception of one at the Red River Settlement, an academy established for the education of the childivn of the officers of the Hudson's Hay Company, and under the charge (•'" the bishop. ■2471). It is under the sujjervision of the bishop ; but who is at the expense of the school ?^ — Tlie Huiison's Bay Company contribute 100/. a yeartowanls the school ; l)ut it is a self-supporting school ; pupils pay, 1 think, about 'M I. a year to it ; it is a school of a superior class. 2471. Mr. Cfmrhs I'itzwiUiam.} Were you yourself educated there- — I was. 2472. Mr. G>(Mjan,] And you had to bear your shareof the contribution? — Yes.

2473. With the ex«;eption of the contribution of 100/. a year to that school
of a su|)erior class, is there, as far as your knowledge goes, any school in the
territory of the Hudson’s Hay Company assisted by them ?- I know of none.

2474. Mv. Edward F.lUce.j Are you speaking of the period when you were
there r — As far as my information extends down to the present time.

247.^). Mr. diogat/.] Are yoa now speaking of tlie state of things at the time
you were there.’ — Ves; and I believe the same state of things exists at the
present day.

247t). The evitlcnce you have just given us was, in the first instance, confined
to your own knowledge; it is some time since you left the settlement ? — It Is
some time.

” 2477. Have you been in close communication aixl correspondence with any
of the settlers in that locality since that time :— Ever since, down to the present
time ; continuously ; uninterruptedly.

2475. Do you conceive yourself in a position, by reason of that corres-
pondence, to speak of the state of the settlement at present ‘. — I do.

2470. You have uo doubt, whatever, that you represented the ojnnions of the
settlers in the correspondence with the Colonial Government in 1849? — No
doubt whatsoever. .\nd 1 may mention, that since that time, in the last three
or four years, a portion of my family who were resident at Red River have come
over, and arc now living with me, and they of coiiisehave given me more recent
informatiim.

24S0. Mr. Edwdiu KUictP\ I think you said, that with reference to those
c.)inplaints of which you were the organ, you were not responsible for the
statements contained in them — Not for the prtition.

2481. Mr.

SELI’.CT COMMITTKI-: ON 1111, HUDSON’S BAY COMl’ANV. V2Z

J4S1. Mr. Itoiliiirft- .] Hut 1 su|»|i()>n’ yoii hold yourHclf n’H|)onMl)li’ for j-vcry Ut. A, Jibitttr.
part (if llif tvidciicc which you nrc now jri\iiij< as your own ojiinion ?- I do. ■J ,Sj. Mr. (hoijnii. 1 1 rt'frrn'd you to \\n)H' 80 iiiidorthc luad of th«M|U('Htion, 5 M»rch 1857. " Ari' i\wrv any m-IiooIh for tlu' iiistrnction of tlw nativcx where you have Ix'cn '." Tlu'rc ari' tiv«' aiiHWprs of these five itervants, whieh, down to 1849, you believe to he literally correct V • Yes, I do. ; .•4H3. Are you able to cay whether, at the prcBcnt dat*', you consider that tlio.se answers would he applicable i* — 1 believe so; with tlu* exception which I have fornu'rly mentioned. • 24S4. Namely, that there ist one Mchool to which assistaiu'c is given of 100/. t 1 1 j 11 year '*. Yes, and none other. | ; ; | 34S,v The next (pu'stion is, " Are you nware of any attempts of any kind ! ' '! iiaving l)een made by the Company to civilise the natives und instnwit tliem in reliKionr" You have the answers befoii you. No. i. "They an' kept in igniranccatid darkness." No. 2- " No." No. 3. " None." No. 4. " Not aware of any." .\nd No. ."i. '• Not aware of any." Are you equally satisfied of the correctness of these replies in lHt!> as you were of the previous (mes? — ■
That is my opiniim at the present time, distinguishing between the attempts
inacU- by the Missionary Societies, and partially assisted by the Hudson’s Hay
Company, as we heard the other day, and the attempts made by the Hudson’s
Bay t’«mij)any themselves.

248(i. You say the uiissionaiies partially assisted by the Hudson’s Bay I om-
pnny (‘an you defini? it more accurately r — I heard it stated the other day, in
replv to a (juestion of this nature, that the (Company give ceitain sums of
money, varying from .”)»>/. to l.’iO/., to missionaries. I know that these are
•jiven to the missionaries individually ; that no account is exacted of the expen- ;

diture of these sums ; that rio returns are made to the Company of the way in
which education may be advanced by these sum.s ; that they arc given, in fact, j

10 the missionaries, and not to the nussions, and are, upon the whole, ratner j

an impediment to tliem than otherwise. j

-:487. CJifiii’Mdii.] How do you mean ” an impediment” to them .- — In this
way, tliat it makes them shut their eyes to many matters which occur.

•.’488. Mr. Edward Ellicc] I believe those missionaries are not appointed
by the Comiiany ■ — No, by no means; they are paid from other sources, and
these sums of money are given to them additionally. I an> loth to say so, but
they are, in effect, sops to the missionaries.

2480. Chairman.] In jwint of fact, do you believe that Christianity has made
any progress ai.:ong the Indian tribes? — I believe it has made very rapid ,

progress in tb”* last few years, since the bishop went out there. i

J4()o. Is that among the trib( ‘^ m ‘he immediate vicinity of the settled
country, or far back into the \\ •’ rness ? — Asfar as the Suska*’ .lawan. I believe
that, at the missionary stntion. near Cumberland-house, on the laskatchawan,
the Indians have made very great progress.

241)1 • I believe the si-ttlers at the Ked River are, upon the whole, a very
moral and wcll-orderetS community, are they not? — 1 believe so; especially the .

English race, and tin’.i descendants.

2402. Mr. Edward Ellicc,’] Your observation with regard to these sums of j

money being a sop to the missionaries, I presume, does not apply to the sum
of nu)ney that tin Company pay to the bishop ? — The suiu of money that is |’

paid to the 1)isliop by the Company is paid under nn arrangement sanctione those portions of the country which have a
permanently frozen soil

2642. Mr. Charles Fitzmlliam.] To what depth dees the soil thaw in the
summer time ? — At Fort Simpson, for example in latitude 62″, the thaw in Oc-
tober extended down to 1 1 feet. There was an experiment made in that place ;
that was the whole of the summer thaw. At York Factory, which is nearly in
the same latitude,, I believe, on the shores of Hudson’s Bay, the thaw had pene-
trated only three feet. At Spvern, which is further south, it had penetrated
about five feet. All these experiments are detailed in the Edinburgh New Philo-
sophical Journal for January 1841. A great variety of experiments were made
and compared with experimeni:; made in Siberia by Professor Baer, of St.
Petersburgh.

2643. In the country that you are now speaking of there are thick forests of
timber ; at Fort Simpson, at York Factory, and at Severn, it is a wooded coun-
try ? — It is a well-wooded country.

2644. In the event of the country being settled up, and the consequent dis-
appearance of the timber, would any material change be produced on the soil
in respect of thawing?— -If the woods were cut down, and a freer access
afforded to the sun’s rays, no doubt the thaw would be greater ; but I believe
that there would be a permanently frozen subsoil, though at a greater depth
from the surface.

2645. Would that ground ice interfere with agricultural operations ?— Not
at all. ‘

2646. Of no sort?— No. If the thaw is sufficiently deep, the frozen subsoil
does not appear to affect the processes of vegetation in the smallest degree.
In Siberia, which is in the same latitude as the northern parts of the Hudson’s
Bay Company’s territories, there are large crops of wheat every year.

2b47. Do

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON’S BAY COMPANY. 137

2647. Do you think tliat the country on Mackenzie’s River is at all adapted
to th(^ wants of civilised man ?- 1 he climate is very severe there ; but the soil,
so fur as I 1kiv(> an opportunity of judgin};;, is tolerably well adapted for cul-
tivation. Vou can raise barley and potatoes very w(!ll indeed.

J648. Mr. drogaii.] Without risk?— Without any risk what.soever. And on
the river Liard, which comes from the mountains, you c in raise large crops ;
the soil is better on that river, imd wheat has been occasionally raised.

J649. Mr. Bell.] You mean that if there was anything to induce people to
?ttle there, independent of agriculture, they might cultivate agriculture, but
would not be likely to go there for agricultural pursuits alone ? — No ; the yield
is not equiU of course to the yield of cirops in more southern countries.

26.’)0. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.’] Do you know the Saskatchawan River ? —
I was born upon the banks of that river.

2651. Where? — At Cumberland House.

2652. Do you know anything of the coal on it ? — I have collected all the
information upon that subject, in a memoir whicli has been published by
the Geological Society ; there are some specimens of the coal in this country
which have been examined by Mr. Bowerbank, the greatest authoilcy we have
upon these matters, and I believe the general opinion of geologists is, that it is
a tertiary coal.

2653. Mr. Roebuck.’] A lignite?— Yes; however, nothing more than the
surface coal bir, been examined; I have seen the coal in that portion of the
coalfield running across Mackenzie’s River near Great Bear Lake ; there is no
doubt that there is a great coalfield there all the way to the Rocky Mountains ;
the coal was tolerable, where I saw it.

26j4. If that country is granitic, how comts it that there is tertiary coal
there? — The country is not gra? “tic; the granitic tract lies east of the great
lakes, which are situated in the line of fracture between the primary and
secondary formations, their bf\ains being mostly e-;cavated in the latter. You
find the east side always granitic, and the west side air .ys limestone, or some
secondary formation.

265-). So that that portion of the territory lying west of the line which you
speak of is capable of cultivation because it is upon limestone f — Yes.

Mr. A. Itbitttr.

5 March 1857.

mi’

¥

The Rev. Griffith Owen Curbett, called in ; and Examined.

2656. Mr. Lowe.] ARE you a CIerg}-man of the Church of England? — Yes. Rev. G. 0. Cor6e«.

2657. Have you been in the Hudson’s Bay Company’s territory ? — Yes.

2658. During what period ? — 1 left England in 1851 and arrived at Quebec.
I then went to Montreal, stayed there till the navigation opened up, and thence
I went to BuHalo, across the territory to Chicago ; from Chicago to the iMis-
sissippi, and up the Mississippi 400 miles to St. Paul, and from St. Paul along
the St. Peter’s River, and thence up towards the Missouri to Pembina, and from
Pembina to Red River.

26.’i9. How long did you reside in the Hudson’s Bay Company’s territories ?
— About three years. I left in 1855. I took charge of the Grand Rapids Dis-
trict, St. Andrew’s, as it is now called, the largest parish on the Red River.

2660. Whereabouts is that? — About 15 miles from the seat of govern-
ment.

2(161. What was your duty there? — I had sole charge of the parish, the
Grand Rapids District.

2662. Were you a chaplain of the Company ?— No.

2663. In wliat capacity were you there? — As a missionary of the Colonial
Church and School Society.

26C4. Did you receive any payment from the Company? — No.

2665. Were you under the Bishop ? — Yes.

2666. Mr. Ijordon.] Did you ever visit Portage-h.-Prairi’j ? — Yes.

2f)()’j. Was not there a desire to form a missionary settlement at that place .
— Yes.

2668. What led to that desire? — There were a number of settlers congregated
on the Assiniboine River, about 50 or 60 miles from the seat of government,
and these settlers petitioned for a missionary to be despatched to them for the
instruction of themselves and their children.

0.25. S 669. Was

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MINUTES OP EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

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Re». G. O. Cofi*«. ‘j6r)n. Was any objection made to the formation of a station there? — Yes.
– – — .2670. Mr. Adilerlei/.] What was the date of tiiat objection ? — About 1853,

5 March 1857. I think ; the people may have conptreijaled to petition for a missionary earlier
tliun that (late, i)ut I speak in reference to my own visit.

afiyi. Mr. dordon.] What objections were made to the formation of n scttle-
irient there, and by whom ? — 1 was given to understand that the Hudson’s Bay
Company wouhi not permit the formatient it in r*ther (juarti-rs also. Since the bishop’s arrival in
England I have asked his I^)rdship whether any change has taken place for the
better ; and he says that it is rather for the worse, because now the people
have to pay down 1 5 /. instead of 1 2 /. in my own immediate district. Tlierefore
perhaps hod not this Committee been sitting, I should have felt a desire, before
returning to the country, to have sought an interview with the Colonial Secre-
tar}|, for the purpose of having some change introduced ; because we have
appealed to the authorities in the country, and have had no change whatsoever
introduced iu my own district.

2686. That deposit which you have spoken of, you think acts as a quasi pro-
hibition to settlement ? — Yes ; the raising of the terms for the lands ; and it
also makes the people indignant, because many of them say, ” We were the
original proprietors of the soil, and now that we wish to settle down and form
a settlement (and here is a missionary who has come all the way from England),
the terms are raised so that yn’ cannot pay them ; we have not the means of
paying them.”

adSj. You have mentioned two cases in which obstructions were, as you
think, made by the Company to the fonnation of a settlement ; can you give
us any other instances within your own knowledge/ -I can mention other
instances ; and I can also, with reference to this subject, give an extract from
a letter which I received recently from a missionary at the Bed River Settle-
ment, who says : ” Sir Gc-rge Simpson c xpressed his displeasure at Archdeacon
Cochrane’s procc umgs at the Portage la- Prairie, and required that he with-
draw and the place be left vacant ; to which the archdeacon replied, ‘ I wonder
Sir George Simpson does not know me better ; he thought to send me from the
Grand Bapids, then to put me out of the Indian settlement ; and does he think
I am now going to quit the portage ? I am surprised that he has not learnt
better by this time.’ ” I have the original of this letter with me, if ihe Chair-
man should like to see it.

a688. Mr. Edward EUicc] Who is the writer of that letter ; is it Archdeacon
Cochrane ? — This was written to me by a missionary upon the Red Biver.

2689. From whom is the letter ; it is not from Archdeacon Cochrane ? — No.

2690. It is from a friend of yours r — It is from a missionary in the Reil River
Settlement.

2691. Mr. Roebuck.] Have you any objection to state his name? — I have
not ; he is the Rev. Mr. Taylor, the agent of the Propagation Society.

2C92. Mr. Gordon.’] Have you known any other case in which the mis-
sionaries either have been, or have thought they have been, desired by the Com-
pany’s officers to quit the post at which they were labouring? — There was Fort
Alexander, to which objections were raised in the very same manner.

2693. Where is Fort Alexander? — It is near Lake Winnipeg; concerning
that I can read an extract from the sanie gentleman, wlio has written to me as
follows : ” Sir George Simpson has given permission now to occupy Fort
Alexander ; to that place 1 suppose Mr. G. (a missionary), will eventually be
appointed ; but strange to stay, he was to confine himself to the fort, not to
civilise and evangelise the hcutlien ; not to form a locality or permanent
dwelling for the Indians.” There is, however, no missionary there, I believe, at
the present time.

2694. Have you ever heard that the authorities of the Company have
e::pre#sed their opinion that it would be better if the missionaries would give
up their efforts there ?— We have heard them state that if missionaries and
missionary settlements increase, chief factors and fur trading posts must
decrease.

2695. Mr. Lowe.] Whom are you speaking of when you say “them’*? — The
agents of the Company.

2696. Wiiat agents, and where ?— In the neighbourhood of Red River,

2697. What are their names?— I should prefer not mentioning the names.
0.25. s 2 2698. Will

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MINUTES OF FA’IDENCE TAKEN FiEFORE TIIK

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March 1 8^;.

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2Cmf. Will you trll u« under wimt cirrumRtuneeH it wjw mentioned ; wn8 it
an ofhrinl eoniniuninition, or liow wim it mmle ? — There lire severnl instances ;
it was* mentioned on one oeeasion when some of the iix*'”*** of th»’ Company and
Bome of the eh-rgymen were feathered together diseussing these things.

2(>0(). In the course of <'(mversation •— Yes. 3700. Lord Stanlei/.] It was a casual remark nam»'d bj' one person in a eon- versation?— Not a casual remark ; it was a discussiim as to how the system of the Mudson'it Bay ('om|mny acts in the country. 270 1. Mr. Luu'e.\ This i;entleman stated it as his opinion in conversation r —Yes. 2702. Mr. Bnebtiek.] And was the conduct of the Company in accordance with that opinion so given ■ — Tlu- conduct of ^he Company, or the system of the Company ns such, is exactly in accordance with it. 2703. Mr. Gro<;an.] You mention this as having been a conversation ai^iong some clergymen anil gentlemen assembled ; did they cimeur in the view whieli was so expressed to then) ; did they throw any doubt upon the statement at all r — Nut the slightest. 2704. Mr. Gordon.] Were you ever informeil by any missionary there that he had been desired to quit the country, and that on his request that the person so desiring him would put that desire into writing, the request had been declined? -I have heard Archdeacon (Cochrane state that. 2705. Mr. LoiveJ] Of himself?— Of himself; that when he was going on buihling the church at the (Jrand Uajjids, which is now the chief district in the R (1 River Settlement, so great was the excitement occasioned by the intimidations of Sir George Simpson that for eight months no settler or native seemed to ])ossess sufficient courage to lift an axe or hoc to proceed with the building, and that he was in the greatest possible trouble under the circum- stances ; that Sir George Simpson eventually went to him, aud told him that he had better leave the country than build that church ; that he then said, " Will you put it upon paper, and I v/ill go to England if you will r" and that Sir George declined jjutting it upon paper. 2700. Archdeacon Cochrane stated this to you, I understand? — He stated this to me upon the occasion of the raising of the terms of taking the land 10 obstruct my own district; he said, "I rarely do any good in this countr\ without having an opposition; but we have tried in the lower part of tiic settlement, therefore go forward." He stated this to me to encourage me. 2707. Where-— At my own station. 270S. When ?— Perhajjs in 18.i3or 18.")4. 2700. W'as any one else firesent ■ — I am not sure, but still his observation.^ were well understood in the settlement. 2710. Is the archdeacon in England ? — No. 2-11. Mr. Kduaril Kllice.] He is at Ued River, is not he ? — Yes. 2712. Mr. Gordon. What is the physical character of the country- — It is very good for agricultural operations. 2713. How far from the l)auk» of the river, in your o])inion, might agricultural operations be profitably extended .' — For a very great distance. 2714. More than a mile from tlie banks?— I have heard Mr. M'Dermott, who is, perhaps, the greatest merchant >e tliey say. ” If we raise it we cannot sell it.” Oonsennently ««• oumut
(Icpeiid upon tl’em f«ir our supplies; therefore it ii^ood deal of our time is
()l)lii!;ed to he directed to nuricultural jmrsuits, wideh tim<. miKht he (U'voted to educational ])ursuits if the people were suthoiently encouraf^ed in raising their ifrniii. ■2J2\. It is your opinion, that if tliere were a sufficient market, even with the present population, agricultural |)ursuits might he profitahly followed to a much larger extent ? — Yes, to an almost utdimited extent, up to u certain line of latitude in the n< ""Mi, and still further north I believe nH we advance to the western part of t\w »!ontinent. J7JJ. Mr. (rrafidn.] What latitude are you referring tor — Perhaps four degrees or five dcgr«;es north of tiie boundary line, beginning at HJ degrees west longitude, about two or three degrt < s north of the line, and widening up to five degrees in advancing us far as 127 degrees west longitude. •J7J3. Mr. Charlit FitzuilUam.\ Will you tell us what the nature of the soil is about lied Ilivcr ; yo\i say there is n large extent of country there which could be cultivated with advantage ; what sort of country is it.'— The .soil is alluvial ; they cultivate the soil without nmnuring it ; they sow it for I'i and 14 years together, and jiroduce for four (puirts, 12 bushels of wheat, G3 or 70 lbs. to the Imsliel, which I am told by tlu; farmers of England really exceeds the returns in many parts of Great iJritain. J724. You say that there is a large extent of country about Red River which is capable of cultivation ; is there water in that country i* — Yes. ■J~2;',. I here are streams running to the Ued Uiver? — Yes ; fine streams. .'7Jti. An; those streams timbered streams, or is there no wood: -There i; a fair quantity of wood along the rivers. ■i7.'7. What timber is it "- — There are oak, elm, biroh, jiin*', and white-wood. 27 jS. ^Vhat is white-wood ? — It is something like poplar. 27 jy. ^Vhat are the other natural vegetable ^ oduclions "f the country ; w.'^t is the nature of ihe grass .' —Timothy grass grows, I think, rid other kinds. 2730. Is it a country which will naturally support cattle r — Yes. 2731. May can be cut.- -Yes. 2732. Cattle can live there in the winter r -Yes. They have only to cut their hay; they have not to make it by turiuiig it over, and so on, ''ut have siuijily to cut it down and let it remain one or two days, and then go and collect it in. 2733. Is it m'cessary to house cattle in the winter: — No, not the whole of the time. They hou^o them at night, but not by day. 2734. We have heard something of the fit ids in that country, are they of fr<'(|uent occurrence ?— A flood hud occurred previously to my arrival ; but I believe they rarely take jilace. I think there have been only two or three flootls there since I have had any knowledge of the country. Since the for- mation of Red Uiver Settlement, there have been only one or two floods. :.'73--,. Of course the floods occur in the spring time ? — Yc; •J73O. Has there been any extraordinary fall of snow i; r! winter when then' has been a flood- — I believe that has not been generally noticed; they cannot attribute tlie cause solely to the larger quantity of snow ; sometimes it has been stated to be the case. 2737. Mr. Gordon.'^ Do not large numbers of the settlers and half-breeds go to St. Paul's for their suiijilies, instead of getting goods out, via Hudson's Bay, by th(! Company's ships ? — Yes. 2738. What is the cause of that?— The dissatisfaction which they feel at present with the Hudson's Bay C!ompany's system. 27 ;y. Hut why should that dissatisfaction make them seek their supplies at St. Paul's- -lU-causc they cannot get supplies at a reasonable rate by the lluiison's Bay route. 2740. Why r — They have again and again asked the Hudson's Bay Company, as far as 1 have been given tn understand by the settlors themselves, to improve the inland communication up to Y'ork Factory by Lake Winnipeg, The interruptions only cover a distance of about 400 miles ; the other 400 miles might be navigated by a little steamboat, over Lake Winnipeg, whicl! is t>-j. S3 a lake

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Rev. G. O. Corbeti. a lake 300 miles in length. They have again and again told me that they
have asked the Hudson’s Bay Comp.my to improve the inland communication.
They have c.xpre.ssed a willingness to pay a small tax to the Hudson’s Day
Company for so doing, but the Hudson’s Bay Company have not done so.
One attempt I believe was made by them at one time to some extent, because
the i)eo()le became so very clamorous upon the subject, but they failed in carry-
ing the thing out to completion ; and the people now say, ” We cannot ask for
any further improvement ; we will go down to the United States of America
and get up our things.” Hence, perhaps, 200 carts and men, and horses and
oxen, are united together, and formed into a large party ; they cross the plains
and they travel not much less than 1,400 miles backwards and forwards, and
expose themselves to great danger and peril, in order to get their supplies at a
reasonable rate in lied River Settlement. I came over with a party numbering
200 carts altogether.

2741. Mr. Edward Ellice.] That is, from St. Paul’s?— To St. Paul’s, from
Red River.

2742. Mr. Gordon.] You have stated that the settlers have made representa-
tions, and petitioned for an improvement in the communication between York
Factory and Red River : have they ever done so with reganl to Lake Superior ;
do they think it possible to improve that route ? — There is no interruption all
the way from Red Rivei to the north-western boundary on Lake Winnipeg ; it
is all clear open water ; so that the Hudson’s Bay Company might at this very
hour have steambcts, or better means of conveying supplies up from that lake
into the Red River, and the goods might be taken from York Factory to the
entrance of the lake.

2743. Have you travelled that country ? — No, I have not travelled on the lake.

2744. Surely there is evidence that that route is very much interrupted by
rapids and other obstructions ? — Not the whole route, only a part of it.

274.<). What makes you give so decided an opinion as that? — From constant intercourse with the people upon this very subject, because it has become a matter of iiublic debate in the country. 274r). What route would that follow ; not that, I suppose, from Lake Winnipeg down the rivers ; I am speaking of the route by Lake Superior : I understood you to say that there was no difficulty in that route, which rather surprised me ? — I meant the other route ; but as to the difficulties between Red River and Lake Superior, I am tcIJ that they are by no means insurmountable. I have recently had a letter from a gentleman on the banks of lied River, who has conversed with a retired chief factor of the Hudson's Bay Company upon the subject. 2747. Do you obtain with ease supplies for the use of your station from the forts of the Company ? — Even if the Company were willing to furnish us with our supplies (and we are not sure cf that) we could not get a sufficient quantity. For example, in the article of tea there is not always a sufficient stock kept in the country. 1 have a letter in my hands, in which the gentleman says, " You will imagine the panic we ara all in at the probability of there not being a ship ; the rjal or isupposed straits we shall all be in ; and the plans proposed for a partial supply of tiie wants and necessities of this singularly situated people, dependent on one ship. Oh the casualty, the risk, the uncertainty ! — but so it is. Pray God for us, that we may not this year feel the sad experience of so serious a state of th'ngs consequent on such inadequate means of supply. But it looks gloomy at present ; everything is out ; all the stores are bare, and were it not for what the importers from the States brought in, there would now be little or nothing for the people's use." 2748. Mr. Edward Ellice.] What is the date of that letter?— September the 24th, 18.j5. 2749. ^^•'- /'«"'''-] !)'> you object to give the name of the gentleman who
wrote it?— The same gentleman.

2750. The Rev. Mr. Taylor ?— Yes.

275 1. Mr. Gordon.’] The Company sell goods to you, do they not ? —Yes, some
things.

2 7.’;2 Is tiiere a regular tariff at their forts by which you know the fixed
piicc for good> eoiuitig from Europe– The agent at the fort tells us that he
has not a la\etl tarill himself, LlierLforc we cannot get it. There are certain

things

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON’S BAY COMPANY. 143

things which are fixed ; for example, for salt we have to pay 1 *. a quart ; Rev. O. 0. Corbett.

and for sugar, 1 *. a jjound ; and for rice, 1 *. a pound ; that is fixed.

jj/jj. Then there is a fixed tariff for some articles, but not for others? 6 March 1857.
-Yes.

2754. Mr. Edward Ellice.] But all those things are also brought in by the
community from the States ? — Not English salt, that comes from England.

2755. Is there any obstruction to their being brought in ? — Recently, since
the large caravans have come in from the States, they have imported all they
have required.

2756. Is there any obstruction on the part of the Company to the bringing
in of those things if the people choose to do so ? — I think there is none on the
])arl of the Company in bringing goods in from the United States, with the
exception of efforts recently to put on a very heavy import duty.

:^757. What import duty ? — I have been informed they proposed 10 or 20 per
cent.

2758. Do you mean the Hudson’s Bay Company r — Yes.

‘2759. For what purpose was that duty put on ‘! — I think ostensibly for the
improvement of the roads.

2760. As you say ostensibly, have you any reason to suppose that it is turned
to any other purpose, whatever the duty may be? — I will just state a circum-
stance, if you will allow me, which will illustrate the case.

•2761. Just answer ray question first ; you may state the circumstance after-
wards. Have you any reason to suppose that that money is appropriated to
any other purpose than that for which it is stated to be raised ? — I cannot
always say how money is approjjriated.

2762. Why do you say “ostensibly” ?— For this reason, because from Fort
Garry, the seat of government, in a southern direction down to the boundary
line, there is no improvement of the roads whatever

2763. Mr. Roebuck.^ Do they improve the roaas ? — By no means in that
direction ; because the settlers with whom I travelled held a council, and they
debated whether they would pay the import duty or not, and they said, ” Tlie
roads are not improved ; we are obliged to make our own bridges as we cross ;
we are obliged to wade across with our carts ; we will not pay the import duty.”
That was the resolution which was passed.

2764. Mr. Edward Ellice] Have you ever heard that the Hudson’s Bay
Company pay for their own goods to that same ostensible fund, the same duty
that is charged upon goods coming in from America? — I think the Hudson’s
Bay Company get their supplies chiefly from Hudson’s Bay.

276.5. 1 ask you whether the company pay upon their own imports by Hud-
son’s Bay the same duty that they ;’iiarge upon the imports from the American
frontier r— They may do so, but I have had no fact to show it.

2766. Have you ever heard the circumstance of their hpifing done so? — No;
they may do so ; I have no doubt but what they comply with those rules.

2767. You know that there are rules ? — There may be rules ; at least the party
with wi <)m I travelled said tiiat they would have to pay so much for importing their ovv 1 supplies. 2765. You said that the Company complied with the rule? — I have not said that they actually did ; but that I liad no doubt they did. 2769. Have you any reason to believe that the rule applies to the Company as well as to those parties with whom you travelled ; do you believe that that rule is a common one ? —I am nut aware how the Company act with reference to these rules at all. 2770. Do you know thfit those rules apply to the Company ; I am not talkinro is rlso a garrison there.

2707. Mr. Edward Ellicn.] That fort is not occupied in winter, is it? — It is
occupied all the year round ; i camped there myself; I slept there two or three
nights.

2798. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.’] Is it a military post ?— There are a garrison
and a fur post, and a settlement of Indians and half-breeds there. I believe
some of them have gone over the frontier from Red River.

2791). Mr. Gordon.] How far is Pembina from Red River ? — Seventy or
eighty miles from the seat of Oovernment.

2800. But from the boundary line “^ — It is as close as possible to the boundary
line.

2801. Do you know whether any facilities for settlement are afforded near
the frontier by the United States at the present time r — I believe they are giving
every facility. When I came down I found gentlemen from America up as far
as Otter-tnil Lake making claims, and thence as far up as Pembina.

2802. Where is that ?— I suppose it is 150 miles at least to the north of St.
Paul’s ; it is a lake well marked upon the map, I think.

2803. .Mr. Charles FitziviUiam.] Is it another St. Peter’s, or on the Mississippi ?
— It empties its waters into the Red River, I believe.

2S04. Mr. Lowe-] Is it or.*., of the head waters of the Red River r — Yes, one
of the sources.

280/5. Mr. Gordon.] Have you, during your stay at the Red River, known
parties of settlers, with whom you were personally acquainted, leave the Red
River for the United States or elsewhere, from dissatisfaction with the Govern-
ment r— I met with a gentleman at St. Paul, Mr. Doll, a stationer and bookseller
at St. Paul, who has a flourishing business, and he told me that, from the
inconveniences which he had found at the Red River Settlement, and the
discouragements thrown in his way, he had left ; but he is now doing well at
St. Paul ; other parties also have left.

2806. To your own knowledge ? — Yes.

2807. Mr. Edward Eliice.\ What had Mr. Doll been at the Red River r^
1 believe a portion of tiie time he had been in the Hudson’s Bay Company’s
service.

2808. What was the discouragement which he met with? — The usual dis-
couragements experienced by people in the colony.

2809. Mr. Gordon.] What are they ? — The difficulties they have of getting
tlieir goods ; the difficulty of getting representations from the colony, &c. &c.

2810. Mr. Edward Ellice.] What do you call “representations from the
i'( ‘ ly”? — The pe()|)le think that they ought to have a voice in representing
lii> .; grievances ; that, in short, there should be a represen<^ative government in the colony. ! I "J. I I ! i "••;.•). l46 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE ■rv^ Lunm, 0* die Martii, 1867. MEMBERS PRE.9ENT. Mr. Bell. Mr. Blackburn. Mr. EdwMrd Bllice. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam. Mr, Gordon. Mr. Oregson. Mr. Grogan. Mr. Percy Herbert. Mr. Kinnaird. Mr. Liabouchere. Sir John Pakington. Lord Jol'.n Rusieil. Viscount Sandon. Lord Stanley. Thb Right Hon. HENRY LABOUCKERE, in the Chair. ■i'l'' J ;5.i I. Vj MM Hi' • fHi The Rev. Griffith Owen Corbett, called in ; and further Examined. UcT. G. O. Cerbett. 28 1 1 . Mr. Gordon.] HAVE you ever travelled in company with the American fur traders ?— Yes. cj March 1857. 2812. For any considerable distance? — For upwards of 1,000 miles. 2813. Near the frontier? — Yes. 2814. Had you any opportunities of observing their manner of traJinj2r ^^ furs ? — I had opportunities obtained from tenting with tliem ni.;ht after night, and camping near their forts on the western route from Minesota up to lied River, and on the eastern route from Red River down to Crow Wing. 281,5. Mr. Edward Ellice.] That is in the American territory : — Y'es. 2816. Mr. Gordon.] Did you ever see tlicm engaged 11 trading for the furs • — Not a great deal. 2817. Did you ever see them make use of spirits as a means of barter for furs? — No ; I never saw any spirits among any of them. 2818. Have you reason then to believe that spirits are not used by them as a means of barter • — I ntver saw a drop of spirits in any of their camps or tents, but I have heard the Honourable N. \V. Kitson, the representative of Minesota, remonstrate against the use of spirits as used on the northern side of the boundary line. 2819. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Wliom did he remonstrate with ? — He lias remonstrated in the presence of the camp. 2820. But with whom r — I cannot say that he has remonstrated with any individual in particular ; but he has expressed himself in very indignant ti:rnis in my presence. 2821. Mr. Gordon.] Whom did he remonstrate against ?— Against the Hud- son's Bay Company's fur trailers. 2822. Mr. Edward Ellice.} How did the vemonstrance aiise ? -He spoke of the increasingly large quantity, as he represented it, of rum whieli was employed amongst the Indians, and he spoke of the demoralising effects. 2823. Where ?- -On the frontier. 2824. Mr. Gordon.] Has anything ever come under your own persional inspection of the demoralising effects of ardent spirits on the Indians ? — Yes. 282.'). Mr. Edward Ellice.] Who is that .Mr. Kitson that you spoke of?— He is, I believe, the representative for the Minesota territory. ■2ii2(). Is he not a trader on the frontier in ojjposition to the Hudson's Bay Company r — I cannot say that he is engaged in opposition to the Hudson's Hay Company. 2827. Do you know that he is not ?— I do not think that he is a fur trader in opposition to the Company. 2S28. I/O vou not know that Mr. Kitson is a trader in co'npi'tition with the Company ?— He is a trad r, I believe, in the Minesota territory, in connexio.i with the fur-trjvding Company in that country. 2Sj(). Is Mr. Kitson at lied River as well as in the American territory -—He does not reside at Re I River, I believe. •j^.^o. Do SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 147 2S30. Do you know whether he frequents Red River ?— He visits Red River Rev.G. O. Corb»i(. backward.s and forwards, I believe, as often as he accompaoies the mail up — from Minesota towards Red Uiver. g March 1857. ■-'831. Have you not reason to believe that Mr. Kitson is a trader in com- petition with the Hudson's Bay Company, not only in the American territory but in the territory as far north as Red River f — Not on the British side. I do not think it at all. 283'J. Do you know what his occupation at Red River is when he is there? — The most, I believe, that I have heard respecting his visits at Red River is i'833. Just answer the question; do you know what his business is when he goes so frcquf ntly to Red River ; why does he go there ? — I believe that he has relatives at Red River, and that he visits tht^e relatives; and he takes an interest in forwarding goods, and letters, and mails up to Red River^ and visits Red River ; and the people of Red River take an interest in all his visits as a consequence. •2834. Do not you know that he trades there r — He may privately enter into arrangements for that, but I have no fact before me to prove it. 2835. Mr. Gordon.] Do you believe that he trades in furs there ? — I do not believe that he trades in furs on the British territory. 2836 Have you seen any instances of the use or abuse of spirituous liquors in dealings for furs by the agents of the Company ? — I have seen Indians intoxi- cated within the gates of the Upper Fort Garry. 2837. What reason have you to suppose that that liquor came from the Company r — It must have come from the fort ; there is no other source for it within the immediate vicinity of the fort ; and I have seen Indians in their encampments, in the neighbourhood of the furt, in a state of intoxication, and so wild that I myself have ridden out of my way to be secure in travelling. 2S38. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Where ? — In the neighbourhood of Fort Garry. 2839. Were you encamped there ? — No ; I have passed by them. 2840. Mr. Gordon.] Could not they have procured those spirits from the settlers ? — They may have obtained a little from some of them ; and very likely some of the settlers use rum as well as the Company. 2841. Mr. Edward Ellice.] There are grog-shops there, are there not? — Not that I am aware of. 2842. Not in Red River?- Not in Red River. 2843. Do you know Mr. Fhilip Kennedy? — Yes. 2844. Does not he keep a grog-shop ?— He never did when I was at the Rapirts, and I resided close to his residence; there was no grog-shop there then, nor the slightes t appearance of grog. I have seen Indians "ntoxicated in my own district ; there was a case that happened in my own district. 'J845. Mr. Gordon.] Is it within your personal knowledge r — Yes. I had left my own station, and after returnmg to it, I found that a woman and children had left their cottage, and taken refuge underneath our own roof. I inquired •the reason of it, and they told me that it was hecause they had been excluded from their own dwelling. I then went to the husband, and inquired the cause of it, and he said the cause was this, that the Indians and half-breeds, on returning from the fort of the Company, at Fort Garry, after ': 'ing taken down their furs, sfught admii->ion into his warm room to warm diemselves ;
and after staying to warm them&eives a little they then began to hand round
the rum.

•JS46. Mr. Edward Ellue..] Who did? — The Indians and half-breeds inside
this cottage ; and after drinking the r\xv”. for some time they came to high
words, and from higli words they came to i/iows, and a regular fight took place ;
and so dreadful was this fight that the man said he did r”t ‘:.i s<'' more children to the school r — 1 referred 'o th'=^ effe( s of tin Lite wui in tilt Crimea ujion nocietics in depressing their fun;' >.

28,54. Mr. Charles FitzwilliaiH. J You have tnvfelled up the Rtu River, have
you not ? — Yes.

2855. Are there many small titresuns running into it on either side?— There
are a great many on the westt rn route ; on the westerr side of the lied If ‘v;,’,
niid numerous strennis on the eastern side.

,i856. You have trav> ‘led on both sides f — Yes.

•iS,’;?- 1-. ‘ nuaiiy sue!, .streams are there from the m’ulh i>f the river at ■. ‘;e
Winiiipv’ji; (0 ihr boundary line r — I should think thare .ire 2(» or 30.

28^1’-‘. Thi’^ isi in a diiu arc not prejjar’ l to substantiate that allegation will you withdraw
4t? — I ;j)ly express my nni.rc sion ti>)m what has been said in the country ;
tiiiil i- .11 that 1 can sjiy upon the subject. I repeal, the charge has not been
Ji(i(hiced by me.

288(1. Had you ever anv fear yours If of your letters being opened? — I

really

(«) t>ee Question l8y5 in Sir (ieorge S?ini.)son’s Evitlence.
0.25. T 3

i^H

w

Letter uf Mr. R. Lane.

150

MINUTI’S OP EVIDRNCfi TAKEN BEFORE THE

n«v. 0. 0. Corftrt/. really have had BUi;h fear that i obtained a special stamp for my own

Ifttors.

9 Murcli 1857. 2SS7. What do you eall ” a speciai stamp ” ?— One with my own initials, &c.

2S.S8. Chainnnn.] Has any case ever come to yonr knowledge iu which it
was clearly proved that a letter had been thus opened ? — No.

Sir ./. liicharition,
c. B.

m\

m

m

Sir Jdhn Richtmkon, c.n., called in ; and Examined.

288;). Chairman.] WFIAT opportunities have you had of becoming ac-
quainted with that portion of British North America which is under the ad-
ministration of the Hudson’s Bay Company ? — I have made three several
journeys throutrh it, and have resided altogether in the country about seven
years during those journeys.

2890. Have you only known it in your capacity as a traveller ? — In no other
capacity.

2891. Have vou never been connected with the Hudson’s Bay Company in
any manner i — In no manner as a servant, or paid in any way by the Hudson’s
Bay Company ; I had some share in the Hudson’s Bay stock at one time,
which is now transferred.

2892. You are not a proprietor at this moment? — lam not a proprietor,
although I have a life interest in a few shares.

2893. Under what circumstances were the journeys that you allude to under-
taken ? — I went out first in 1819 with Sir John Franklin, and we travelled from
York Factory to Lake Winnipeg, and from thence to (ireat Slave Lake, and
down the Copper Mine Hiver to the Arctic Sea, and then back again by nearly
the same route ; that was the first journey, which occupied three and a half
year.s.

2894. What was the second journey ? — The second journey was in 1825 ; I
went out by the way of New York, and tiavelled by Montreal, Ljike Huron, Lake
Superior, Fort William, Winnipeg, Churchill River, Athabasca, Great Slave
Lake, and on to Great Bear Lake, upon the Mackenzie. Then I descended
the Mackenzie River and travelled to the eastward along the coast to the
Copper Mine River, which I ascended, /tnd came back to Cireat Bear Lake I
returned homewards by the snme route, except that I diverged at Isle k la
Cro>se over the prairies to Carlton House, and descended the Saskatchewan
frt n thence to Cumberland House.

2895. Mr. Kdtvard Ellice.] How long did that occupy.’ — I was two and a
half years in the country upon that occasion.

2896. Chainnan.] Will you describe your third journey ? — The third journey
was in 1848 and 1849 ; I went out to starch the coast for Sir John Franklin ;
I made very nearly the same journey that I did upon the second occasion, only
the route through the United States was different.

2897. Were you ever on the west side of the Rocky Mounti’ns ? — I have
never been on the west side qf the Rocky Mountains.

2898. Will you have the goodness to state to the Committee any general
opinion which you have formed ‘>f the capabilities of any considerable portion
of the country which you have travei.<»ed, for the purposes of settlement and colonisation ? — With regard to the production of cereals, wheat may be grown uj) to the 58th parallel of latitude, in favourable places, but oidy in parts. 2899. Mr. Edward Ellice] Probably you will tell us the general aspect of the territory, taking it as a whole. It has bof;n stated here that it is divided into three distinct (livisions .- — In giving a general ide.i of so extensive a country, I should take the Rocky Mountain chain as a iiu Icus of the description. Its peaks rise from 1 2,U00 to 1 5,()()() feet above the level of the sea ; on the eastward it has an inclined base of about 1 M) miles wide, composed of sandstone, and lying 8,000 feet above the sea ; then there is a sloping prairie land from GOO to 800 miles wide, cillcd rolling prairie, on which there are some bluffs b\it no peaks and no hills of any note ; thnt 's mostly grass land ; thea there is a tract of rocky country, extremely uneven, but n<>‘ rising very high,
aliout 200 miles wide, h.unding a chain of lakes which sep^irates it generally
I’ruiu the prairie luml, .dthough there is a little wooily coui; 1 tervening
between these lakes an I the prairie; ll-cii there is a very uneven c’.iiu ‘if equal
width descending to Hudson’s Bay, partly Hmestone ; all that 20an] Is that the district of the Great l^akesf — The district of
the Great Lakes’ iun^^ auout south-west from the mouth of the .St. Lawrenc , 9 “””■’■■n •*’67-
and does not interfere with it ; tlie district of which 1 have heen spcakiu)^ is
separated from that of the Great l,ak’?s hy an elevated rocky ridf^e, not nearly
80 high as the Rocky Motmtains, hut hy a ridge in which the jjass over which
the Hudson’s Bay Company travel to the nortli, and wliicli, I suppo-se to he
well chosen, is 820 feet nbnve the level iif Lake Superior, which itself is about
640 feet above the sea; the pass is i)robahly about 1,400 feet altogether above
the level of the sea. The summit of the vatershed at Thousand Islands Lak(!
is 40 or 50 miles from Lake Superior in a direct line, and the much longer and
circ’itous canoe route rises at least 800 feet within the 50 miles.