Province of Canada, Legislative Council, Scrapbook Debates, 8th Parl, 2nd Sess, (23 June 1864)

Document Information

Date: 1864-06-23
By: Province of Canada (Parliament)
Citation: Province of Canada, Parliament, Scrapbook Debates, 8th Parl, 2nd Sess, 1864 at 209-210.
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THURSDAY, 23rd June, 1864.  

The SPEAKER took the Chair at three o’clock.


Hon. Mr. FERGUSSON BLAIR presented reports of Standing Committee of Private Bills, with the following bills, all of which were read a third time and passed:—

Bill to incorporate the Fergus, Elora and Guelph Railway Company, with amendments.

Bill to amend the act incorporating the Canada Marine Insurance Company, with amendments.

Bill to grant certain powers to the Canada West Farmers’ Mutual Fire Insurance Company, with amendments.

Bill to change the limits of certain municipalities in Wolfe and Arthabaska, with amendments.

Bill to erect the townships of Ste. Bridgitte, Ste. Wenceslas, and other townships in the county of Nicolet, into a County Municipality.

Bill to amend the act of incorporation of the Iberville Academy, without amendment.

Bill to incorporate the Upper and Lower Canada Bridge Company.

Bill to enable the Art Association of Montreal to establish an Art Union in connection with the other operations thereof.

Bill to amend the act incorporating the St. Lawrence Mining Company.

Bill to incorporate the village of Napanee as a town.

Bill to incorporate the Massassaga River Improvements Company.

Bill to amend the act to consolidate the debt of the town of Bowmanville.

Bill to divide the township of Lochaber, in the county of Ottawa, into two separate municipalities.

Bill to facilitate the administration of the estate of the late Robert Shaw Millar, and Eliza Mitchell, his wife.

Bill to enable the trustees of the late John Whyte to dispose of certain property under his will.

Bill to incorporate the Congressional College of British North America.

Bill to incorporate the trustees of the American Presbyterian Society of Montreal.

Bill to enable the Corporation of the village of Caledonia to issue new debentures to redeem certain others now outstanding.

Bill to remove doubts in relation to the will of the late John Gray, of St. Catherines.

Bill relating to the Saugeen and Waterloo Railway.

Bill to amend the Act of the Canadian Literary Institute of Woodstock.

Further Explanations

Luc Letellier de Saint Just [Grandville, elected 1860] said that before going to the orders of the day, he thought it necessary to take some notice of certain discrepancies between the explanations given in this House yesterday and those given elsewhere. He had then put a question to the Premier [Étienne Pascal Taché] whether the principle of representation by population were to be applied in any way to the plan of federation they proposed to adopt. He then stated also that in another place it was stated that the principle in question was to be so applied, but in answer to his inquiry he was told that if such a statement was made elsewhere it was simply the opinion of the individual members, which did not bind the Government. Now he was desirous of knowing how these statements could be reconciled, and would ask whether there was really any difference of opinion between the Ministers on this subject?

The Speaker said it was not exactly in order to refer to what passed in the other branch of the Legislature.

Jacques-Olivier Bureau [De Lormier, elected 1862] thought the House would be willing to overlook the point, in view of the importance of the circumstances in which we were now placed.

Étienne Pascal Taché [Canada East, appointed 1848, Premier, Minister of Militia, and Receiver General] said he had merely told the House that the Government had agreed upon nothing else than what was contained in the paper, and he now repeated it.

Luc Letellier de Saint Just [Grandville, elected 1860] went on to say that it was stated in the other House that representation by population was acceded to as a part of the plan.

Étienne Pascal Taché [Canada East, appointed 1848, Premier, Minister of Militia, and Receiver General] repeated what he had said, and added that if such an opinion as the hon. member alleged had been expressed in the other House, it was on the individual responsibility of the parties.

Luc Letellier de Saint Just [Grandville, elected 1860] again made his big charge, and said this House had not been treated in this matter with the same respect as the other House.

Étienne Pascal Taché [Canada East, appointed 1848, Premier, Minister of Militia, and Receiver General] said the hon. member had given himself a great deal of trouble to put the Government in opposition to each other; but he (Col. Tache) thought he had entirely failed, and went on to argue that all he was authorized to communicate to the House was the paper he had read. Opinions as to the working of the proposed plan might be given, and were said to have been given in the other House by some of his colleagues, but they were not of official authority.

Luc Letellier de Saint Just [Grandville, elected 1860] said he was satisfied with the statement now made, and he had only desired to know whether the opinions elicited elsewhere were authoritative.

(The hon. member, however, reverted again to what had been said in the Assembly, and read from the speech of Hon. J.A. Macdonald, which he contended was in opposition to the statement of the Premier.)

Alexander Campbell [Cataraqui, elected 1858, Commissioner of Crown Lands] said he did not see that the explanations in one House differed from those given in the other, for the same document was read in both. In the Assembly they had proceeded to discuss what federations meant, while no such discussion was had here. Truly, in case of a federation of all the Provinces, it would not be expected that Prince Edward Island would have as many representatives as Canada in the general Government. Of necessity the population of the various Provinces would have to be considered. Everyone knew that federation meant this. This was just the development of the principle stated in the paper, and in discussing the matter is the Assembly opinions such as he was now uttering had been expressed, that was all, and he contended that in these opinions the was nothing at variance with the federal principle stated to have been agreed upon in the memorandum. No details had been settled, and he believed the explanation of the hon. Premier [Étienne Pascal Taché] were as full and clear, to the point as in the nature of things they could be.

Jacques-Olivier Bureau [De Lormier, elected 1862] maintained that according to the doctrine now laid down, the Lower Provinces would be represented according to their population, and Upper and Lower Canada severally according to theirs.

Alexander Campbell [Cataraqui, elected 1858, Commissioner of Crown Lands] said the hon. member went further than he had done, for his words did not authorize such a conclusion; he had merely said that the population of each several Province would have to be considered.

Jacques-Olivier Bureau [De Lormier, elected 1862]—Then there could be no division of Canada into different sections, but would continue as one.

The conversation then dropped.


Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL, from the Committee, reported the bill with some amendments, which were agreed to, and the bill was read a third time and passed.


Hon. Mr. SANBORN moved that the order be postponed until to-morrow.

Hon. Mr. MOORE moved in amendment that the bill be read this day three months.

A discussion ensued, and upon the vote being taken, the amendment was carried, 21 to 19, so the bill was lost.


Pursuant to the order of the day, the House went into Committee of the Whole, Hon. Mr. Armstrong is the chair, upon the hill relating to the appointment of Magistrates in remote parts of the Province, which was proceeded with, reported without amendment, read a third time, and passed.


The House then went again into Committee on the bill respecting Jurors and Juries.—Hon. Mr. [Illegible]ham is the Chair. The Committee went through the bill and reported the same without amendment. Report adopted and bill ordered for a third reading at the next sitting of the House.


The same course was pursued with regard to the bill to provide for the collection of certain Law fees by means of stamps.—Hon. Mr. Boulton is the Chair. Reported without amendment. Report adopted, bill read a third time and passed.


The House again resolved itself into Committee on the bill relating to insolvent Debtors—Hon. Mr. Armand is the Chair.

The Committee, after going through the bill, rose and reported it without amendment.

The bill was then read a third time and passed.


Hon. Mr. SEYMOUR brought up the 3rd Report of the Committee [illegible] Contingent Accounts. The Report in question recommended certain changes in the salaries of the officers and servants of the House, when any of the offices now held became vacant.

Hon. Mr. DE LATERRIERE moved to amend the Report, by providing that when the office of Chaplain became vacant, the next incumbent would be a minister of the Roman Catholic Church.

The amendment fell for want of a seconder.

The report was then concurred in.


Several bills were received from the Assembly, which were read and ordered for a second reading at the next meeting of the House.

It being six o’clock, the Speaker left the chair.

After the recess—


The House went into Committee of the Whole on the bill respecting the representation in the Assembly of the Counties of Joliette, L’Assomption, and Montcalm. The bill was reported without amendment, read a third time and passed.


The order for the considerations of the Seat Report of the Joint Library Committee having been called for, Hon Mr. MOORE proposed its postponement until action had been taken by the Legislative Assembly; but, after some debate, withdrew the motion, and the first and second paragraphs were read and adopted.


The bill relating to Jurors and Juries was read a third time and passed.


Several bills were read a second time and referred to the Private Bill Committee.


The SPEAKER said he had to inform the House that Hon. Mr. De La Terriere had lodged a protest in his hands against the paragraph in the Report of the Committee on Contingent Accounts, which had relation to the appointment of a successor to the Chaplain of the House. In that protest, which the Speaker read, the hon. member deemed that the next Chaplain should be a Roman Catholic Minister, and give, as reasons—first, that over a million of the inhabitants of the Province were of that persuasion; and second, that ever since the Union, the office had been [illegible]ed by a Protestant Minister.

Hon. Mr. BLAKE asked whether the appointment had not been originally made by the Crown?

The SPEAKER replied that it had, and several other appointments also.

Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL stated that the practice of protecting originated in times when the divisions were not recorded; and thought the hon. member, by the course he had taken, had placed himself in a false position. He had not opposed the adoption of the Report when it had come up; and it was, therefore, passed as with his concurrent. He was now in fact, in some sense protesting against the action of the House, which he himself had sanctioned. He did not see that that hon. member had anything really to complain of.

Hon. Mr. FERGUSSON BLAIR also though the hon. member had gone too far. It was true, he had moved an amendment to the Report, but could find no seconder; so that, in reality, his motion had become a mere suggestion, which the House had not thought proper to adopt.

The protest was, however, ordered to be entered on the minutes, and the House adjourned.

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